Question about an old S&W Victory revolver

[StephenT]

Hey guys,

Today, I picked up an old Smith & Wesson Victory revolver at the gun show, and am trying to determine its approximate production date. I was told that this one dates back to before lend-lease, when revolvers in non-military caliber (in 38 S&W) were shipped to the UK where they were converted to 38 Special. Mine was converted by Cogswell & Harrison Ltd. in London. The serial # is V2898xx.

Might one of you experts know its approximate year of manufacture? I'm thinking late 1930s. Its finish is a normal blue, not the parkarized finish that I've sometimes seen on these victory revolvers. I paid $450 for it. Thanks in advance for your input.

I'll post a photo of it tomorrow.

 

[Balrog]

Are you sure its converted to 38 special?

The British never used them in 38 Special. If memory serves, they were in .38/200 or something like that.

 

[StephenT]

Here's another thread about this victory M&P. I've got the same one, also with the checkered grips. It sounds like standard pressure 38 special loads are ok in this gun.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162242

What does the .38/200 mean?

 

[Walkalong]

.38 caliber. 200 Gr bullet I believe.

My Victory Model is still .38 S&W, which I like.

 

[StephenT]

I've got 4 boxes of 38 S&W SWC bullets, and those cartridges fit perfectly in the cylinder. From what I've read about these models, sometimes the 38 special brass will bulge in the cylinder, and accuracy may not be the best... As a historical curiosity, I guess this gun will spend more time in the safe than at the range.

The Armalite AR-24k that I also picked up today is going to get plenty of range time.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don’t think your going to appreciate me, because it’s my sad duty to tell you that you’ve’ been taken by an unscrupulous seller. What he told you was a flat-out lie.

Prior to World War Two the British (and by extension their Empire and Commonwealth) adopted a .38 caliber, top-break revolver that used the equivalent of the .38 S&W cartridge loaded with a 200-grain bullet. A shorter length cartridge was necessary to work in the top-break style revolver.

Shortly after the war started in Europe, the British realized that they were woefully short of handguns, so they contracted with both Smith & Wesson and Colt to make U.S.-style hand ejector revolvers chambered to use their service cartridge – which was the .38 S&W rather then the .38 Special. They continued to use these revolvers as late as the Korean War.

The initial shipments of S&W .38-200 M&P revolvers was made between 1940 and early 1942, and were purchased directly by the British and other related countries, with Winchester Arms Co. acting as their representative.

Prior to March 1940 S&W had never made the .38 Military & Police revolver, chambered in .38 S&W.

Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, arrangements were made to supply the British with Smith & Wesson .38-200 revolvers through the Lend Lease program. At the same time S&W adopted a new serial number series starting at V –1 (Note the “V” prefix) and all subsequent World War Two production used the “V” prefix. These were called “Victory Models,” and versions were made in .38 Special for the United States, while .38-200 production continued for the British, although a number of them were retained for use in this country.

I estimate that the revolver you have (V289,8xx) was probably made during late 1942 or early 1943, and would have been sand-blasted and Parkerized, not blued.

Following the Korean War, the .38-200 revolvers of all makes, but Smith & Wesson’s in particular were declared surplus, and many were sold to distributors or dealers in the United States. Because the .38 Smith & Wesson cartridge wasn’t particularly popular here, many were rechambered to .38 Special (which in effect ruined the chambers) by various gunsmithing firms, including Cogswell & Harrison Ltd. in London. While the work was well done they effectively ended any collector’s value, and substantially reduced their worth as a shooter. They also made other modifications such as shortening barrels, mounting new front sights, refinishing (both blue and nickel plate) and replacing the stocks.

These modified revolvers are often offered for sale, and usually sell in a range running from about $175.00 to $250.00. Buyers often have no idea what they are buying, but are attracted by the (usually) low prices.

If there is anyone who can collaborate your story as it is posted here, I would report what happened to what ever police department has jurisdiction where the show was held. If an investigator needs additional information from verifiable references I will be glad to provide them. In addition this incident should be reported to show management.

Again, I’m sorry about the bad news.

 

[StephenT]

Thanks for the detailed info, Old Fuff. Yikes, that sucks. I should have my homework first. Oh well. So, when it comes to S&W Victory models, one should look for a non-converted 38 S&W version, is that correct? There's a couple of these listed on gunbroker with a wide variety of prices.

The seller clearly told me that the gun was pre-lend/lease and that the British converted the gun to 38 special for military purposes. It sucks to be taken after years of trading guns at gun shows. I'm going to bring it right back to him at the next show...

 

[Jim Watson]

The seller clearly told me that the gun was pre-lend/lease and that the British converted the gun to 38 special for military purposes.

He lied.

The British were hurting so bad for weapons after Dunkirk that they took whatever they could get from The Arsenal of Democracy, including .38 Specials and .30-06 Rifles. I know they identified the 1917 .30-06s with a band of red paint to distinguish them from the .303 Pattern 14s. I have read that they put a red band on the cylinder of .38 Special revolvers but have not seen one in person.

 

[StephenT]

Ok, email sent off to the Saxet gunshow manager, but I will contact the vendor in the a.m. to try to resolve the matter amicably. If not, I suppose Saxet Gun Shows can blacklist him, at the very least.

To be honest, I have no idea what protections the state of Texas offers gun consumers in such situations.....

I can't be the first person who's had this happen at a gun show. Anyone on this board who's gone after unscrupulous gun show vendors, please feel free to chime in about your experience. Are the gun show promoters receptive to complaints?

Balrog -- good point about him being a regular gun owner vs. an FFL. He's got an FFL, so there's really no excuse. In the best-case scenario, I'll just exchange this revolver for another gun at his stall at the next show.

 

[Balrog]

He lied.

Or he may have just been passing on bad information that he had been told by a previous seller.

The realm of surplus firearms is filled with unscrupulous dealers, coutnerfieters, and liars, but it also full of honest but ignorant people who just don't know anything and are passing on bad information.

Was this "dealer" just a guy selling some guns, or was he a licensed dealer in the business of firearms? If he was just a regular guy selling guns, then I would chalk this up to experience. If he was a dealer, then I think it is more reasonable to complain.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

If I was you I would print out this entire thread and whatever else info you could find on the gun to confront the dealer with. The more documentation you have to back up your case, the better chance you have of the outcome in your favor.

 

[Old Fuff]

So, when it comes to S&W Victory models, one should look for a non-converted 38 S&W version, is that correct?

Yes and no.... And you really need to do more homework. Fortunately a lot of information is available in The High Road's search feature (look in green bar at top of page). Best of all, it's all free for the looking.

As I pointed out. Before we got into World War Two the British were fighting in Europe and North Aferica. They contracted directly with both Smith & Wesson and Colt - as well as Harrington & Richardson (H&R) - to buy revolvers chambered to use "their" service cartridge, which was the .38 S&W loaded with a 200-grain bullet. At Smith & Wesson their product was called:" Smith & Wesson .38-200 Militaty & Police/Pre Victory Model".

When we got into the war (January, 1942 for all practical purposes) all firearms production in the United States came under government control. In the case of Smith & Wesson it was decided that they would exclusively make the K-frame Military & Police revolver -to be called the Victory Model - in two versions.

1. For the British and related allies - the .38-200 with a 5" barrel as standard. As pre-war checkered walnut stocks were used up the went to a similar style, but uncheckered. All had lanyard loops in the butt, and "V" prefix serial numbers. All were originally chambered in .38 S&W. Most were sandblasted and Parkerized.

2. For the U.S. Military and domestic law inforcement agencies - The same identical revolver, but chambered in .38 Special, with either 4" (common) or 2" (rare - watch out for fakes) barrels. These were not rechambered .38-200 revolvers.

You will find both offered for sale. Understandably the .38 Special version is the more popular with both collectors and shooters, and in absolutely perfect condition will command prices up to $500.00 while .38-200 revolvers in the same condition go for about $75.00 to $100.00 less. Altered or refinished examples of both are of no interest to collectors, and shooters generally stick to the .38 Special's.

Just to rub it in, the first .38-200 revolver I bought was in the middle 1950's and cost me $17.00 cash money... It was still brand new.

 

[Jim Watson]

Or he may have just been passing on bad information

I consider somebody telling me a falsehood to get my money guilty until proven innocent.

Of course the watchword is caveat emptor. I remember the pre-GCA1968 ads and would drop a wartime Smith & Wesson marked "Cogswell & Harrison" like a hot potato. It pays to educate yourself. I just cannot comprehend the frequent posts here and on other boards to the effect of "Look at my new gun. What did I buy?"


An interesting sidelight to the Lend Lease and Victory Model revolvers delivered to England is that a lot of them were substitute products making up for the failure of the Smith & Wesson Light Rifle. In 1940 S&W designed a 9mm semiauto carbine for the British. It was as nicely made as any peacetime (for us, at the time) S&W you ever saw, but it was a peculiar design, expensive to build, and an operational flop. England said "No, thanks" and went on to develop the cheap but functional STEN. S&W filled out their contract with revolvers.

 

[StephenT]

Well, I talked to the dealer this morning. Not surprisinsly, he pleaded ignorance about the gun's origins. At any rate, he did offer to exchange it for something else at the next show, which is fine by me (if he does what he says)

 

[Balrog]

I consider somebody telling me a falsehood to get my money guilty until proven innocent

I agree its a dishonest thing to do... but I dont think there is much as a collector you can do about it, other than educate yourself, so you can call BS when you need to. It sounds like this guy is now trying to claim he didnt know what he was saying was untrue. There is just no way to really know.

Let the buyer beware (sorry I don't speak Latin) is the fundamental premise of collecting antique guns.

 

[kanook]

so at the next show when you return it, give it a couple hours and have a friend go over and if it's still there have them inquire about it. If the seller has changed his story you can feel good that you did right. If his story is the same, you now know that the world has some dishonest people in it.