questions about muzzleloaders

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fishblade2

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Hello, I own two black powder rifles. One is a pocket derringer in 32 caliber and the other one is a modern in line muzzeloader (CVA brand with rifled barrel). First I just want to make sure that I have this right. With smoothbore I should use a patch and with rifled barrels I should use mini balls or bullets and sabots. Is this right? I am not sure about the bullets with sabots. Are those to only be used with modern muzzleloaders or can they be used for any old rifled barrel musket? Next I want to speak on loading them. First with my pocket derringer I can't seem to get the ball and patch down the barrel, even when it's clean. With my modern I don't use patches. So I don't know that much about when to use the patches. So again with smoothbore is it recommended to use patches to be more accurate? And again about reloading the muzzleloader I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if loading them should be this hard. I have watched Hickok45 and his two army muskets load SOOO EASILY!!! He has said that bigger calibers, such as his 75 caliber, and with mini balls that loading is easy but with my modern muzzleloader after just 3 to 4 shots I have to clean the barrel to make loading easy again. Without this I have to put all my strength into pushing the bullet down... Is this a usual thing with rifled barrels or smaller calibers? About how I clean my muzzleloader in case this has anything to do with it. I Don't use solvents because I use bore butter by Thompson Center. This causes seasoning to build up on the barrel that solvent will destroy. So after 3 to 4 shots I take additional bore butter and apply it to a patch and I swab the barrel. This gets rid of quite a bit of crud and lubricates the barrels some but after that I find myself doing this more and more often. I have some Rem Oil (I know is not that great of stuff) but I'm afraid to use it because of it possibly ruining the seasoning of the bore butter. When I'm done shooting completely I use hot water to clean the barrel and breech plug. I dry them and then apply bore butter inside the barrel and ballistol on the outside of the barrel. Now my main question is if there is something I'm doing wrong or something to make loading easier. I have even though about using the ballistol to clean the barrel instead of water so that I load easier and use the water and bore butter method on muskets that are easier to clean that way. The last main thought I have had rests in the two different cleaning methods I just stated. Water cleans the barrel QUICKLY and I use maybe 2 patches and dry and get the last powder residue out but with patches and any cleaner I have used so far (besides ballistol, I haven't used it yet on black powder) it takes forever to clean the barrel (like 30 patches to become clean to a certain point) and it's such a PAIN! Does anyone know a better method because with older muskets, as far as i can tell, take some work to get the barrel separate to clean with water so I probably will stick with using a solvent on that such as ballistol but I want to make sure, that if possible, I can use ballistol in a certain manner that will make cleaner easier. I don't use my black powder rifles that often so when I use them I want them COMPLETELY clean so no rust happens between uses. Thanks for helping with all these questions.
 
Hello, I own two black powder rifles. One is a pocket derringer in 32 caliber and the other one is a modern in line muzzeloader (CVA brand with rifled barrel). First I just want to make sure that I have this right. With smoothbore I should use a patch and with rifled barrels I should use mini balls or bullets and sabots. Is this right?

I am not sure about the bullets with sabots. Are those to only be used with modern muzzleloaders or can they be used for any old rifled barrel musket? Next I want to speak on loading them. First with my pocket derringer I can't seem to get the ball and patch down the barrel, even when it's clean. With my modern I don't use patches. So I don't know that much about when to use the patches. So again with smoothbore is it recommended to use patches to be more accurate?

And again about reloading the muzzleloader I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if loading them should be this hard. I have watched Hickok45 and his two army muskets load SOOO EASILY!!! He has said that bigger calibers, such as his 75 caliber, and with mini balls that loading is easy but with my modern muzzleloader after just 3 to 4 shots I have to clean the barrel to make loading easy again. Without this I have to put all my strength into pushing the bullet down... Is this a usual thing with rifled barrels or smaller calibers?

About how I clean my muzzleloader in case this has anything to do with it. I Don't use solvents because I use bore butter by Thompson Center. This causes seasoning to build up on the barrel that solvent will destroy. So after 3 to 4 shots I take additional bore butter and apply it to a patch and I swab the barrel. This gets rid of quite a bit of crud and lubricates the barrels some but after that I find myself doing this more and more often. I have some Rem Oil (I know is not that great of stuff) but I'm afraid to use it because of it possibly ruining the seasoning of the bore butter. When I'm done shooting completely I use hot water to clean the barrel and breech plug. I dry them and then apply bore butter inside the barrel and ballistol on the outside of the barrel.

Now my main question is if there is something I'm doing wrong or something to make loading easier. I have even though about using the ballistol to clean the barrel instead of water so that I load easier and use the water and bore butter method on muskets that are easier to clean that way. The last main thought I have had rests in the two different cleaning methods I just stated. Water cleans the barrel QUICKLY and I use maybe 2 patches and dry and get the last powder residue out but with patches and any cleaner I have used so far (besides ballistol, I haven't used it yet on black powder) it takes forever to clean the barrel (like 30 patches to become clean to a certain point) and it's such a PAIN!

Does anyone know a better method because with older muskets, as far as i can tell, take some work to get the barrel separate to clean with water so I probably will stick with using a solvent on that such as ballistol but I want to make sure, that if possible, I can use ballistol in a certain manner that will make cleaner easier. I don't use my black powder rifles that often so when I use them I want them COMPLETELY clean so no rust happens between uses. Thanks for helping with all these questions.

(Sorry, able to read now)
 
Patched ball will work in your period pistol copies.

For the most part saboted bullets are for modern black powder guns.

Dunno what Hiccock45 is doing, but a dirty BP gun is hard to load and they get dirty quick. I just sighted in my CVA Optima and 3 shots with Pyrodex was all I could muster without swabbing the bore.

For cleaning H-O-T water and dish soap works great. Use the jag with a patch on it, move it up and down the barrel sucking in and discharging the water, when it is clear (after 3 or 4 water changes) scrub the bore with a copper bore brush. Then run an oily patch down the bore followed by a clean dry patch. Done.

Different powders are cleaner and when it warms up I am going to try Black Horn 209...

"Above: 3 shots with a .50 cal muzzleloader at 100 yards after 40 shots and no swabbing between shots!"
 
I agree about not swabbing an inline with Bore Butter and using a black powder solvent instead.
Sabots are designed to be fired with a totally clean barrel.
Many inline shooters swab with 70% or 90% alcohol and then a dry patch.
Others swab with a black powder solvent, or windshield washer fluid, or moose milk, or Ballistol and then a dry patch.
It depends on the powder that they are shooting with and what they like best.

Sabots can be fired in any gun of the right caliber. But they might not shoot any good if the rifling twist rate is too slow or the bore is rough. There's Powerbelt bullets that are easier loading that have a plastic skirt attached, and there's different diameter sabots that are also easier to load.

The HPH24 and the 3PetalEZ sabots have smaller diameters:

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Harvester makes ribbed sabots that are easier to load:

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/

Powerbelt bullets are also easier to load:

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/brow...CATEGORY_SEQ_104547780?WTz_l=SBC;cat104701680
 
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Do what I do, get some of your pillow ticking patches, pop a piece in your cheek before you take a shot that was particularly hard to load, after you took your shot spit it out onto the muzzle, then get the flared end of your ramrod (or put on a cleaning jag) and run it down the barrel a couple times. Take it out, flip it to the clean side, then repeat. You can follow it with a dry patch or you can just load and shoot it once to remove any residual moisture. Just make sure it's not sopping wet when you use it. You can also shoot FFFG, it supposedly burns cleaner, I use it in my .50 rifle with amazing results. It shoots exceptionally flat as well!
 
Yea, I bore butter it after cleaning once and a while and again before I put it away, I get much better groups with regular swabbing with a good solution followed by a dry patch.
 
Long question, sorry, no short answer, and these are just my opinions based on 30+ years of BP shooting and what works for me. Your mileage may vary....
On your 32...try a thinner patch or smaller diameter ball and/or a short starter. It's usually easier to seat/move after you get past the muzzle. And no, you don't have to use a patch if it's a smoothbore. A patched roundball is usually more accurate but with a bellygun like your 32, accuracy and derringer don't often collide in the same sentence. You could use a wad over the powder, load the ball, and then a slightly oversized(instead of 32 use a 36) overshot card to hold the ball in place. You'd make loading easier and accomplish the same thing.

Unpinning a barrel is a chore and more often than not eventually causes damage to the stock. A small section of rubber tubing worked onto the nipple with the other end placed into a bucket of water and a good funnel is easier and safer. As for extremely hot water I've not found it necessary and will often cause the bore to flash-rust as it dries. Warm water and dishwashing detergent drawn up into the bore by a pumping action of a patched jag will soften most any fouling. Follow up with a good caliber-specific bore brush to get down into the grooves and then a patched cleaning jag until it's clean, and flush again. Dry the bore with alcohol, followup with patches dampened with a good BP solvent like Hoppes #9 Black Powder Solvent and Patch Lubricant until they come out clean and then dry patch. Run a good patch dampened with Barricade to protect and you're good to go. I know it sounds detailed but after you do it a few times it's a 10-15 minute process per gun. I'll still grab my Hawken half-stocks and Kentucky longrifles occasionally and run a lubed patch down the pipe to keep tabs but with Barricade I never find anything, it's just peace of mind.

Seasoning a barrel is an old wive's tale, these aren't cast iron frying pans. Tons of documentation on the web.

I won't speak as to your modern inlines but most sidelock firearms shoot better with projectile and methods of the period, ie, patched roundball or appropriate lead skirted conical. I'm betting your buddy shoots a Minie that's slightly over bore size and it takes any left-over fouling down the pipe to the top of the powder charge when he loads it the projectile. When he fires the gun he shoots that fouling out with the Minie. Lather, rinse, repeat.....

You can do the same thing shooting roundballs. Quick tip. When you clean between shots(I do) just don't run your cleaning jag all the way to the breach! You're just pushing fouling down that can block the ignition path and cause misfires or hangfires, especially in sidelocks. Make a witness mark an inch or so before the jag gets to the breach and stop the ramrod there. Add your powder, use an overpowder wad and a well-lubed prb, and shoot out that fouling you've pushed down in the next firing. The extra lube also keeps the fouling soft and easier to load the next round. Ever notice how it's easier to load on a humid day? Same principle.

It's been my experience(again your mileage may vary) that most sidelocks perform better when the bore is clean. The only reason I say "most" is that some shooters believe in the practice of a fouling shot. I don't. I use an overpowder wad on every rifle I shoot to protect the load from a well-lubed, tightly patched roundball. It creates a better gas seal, protects the powder from lube, protects the patch from the flame, and just gives me better accuracy. I could almost use the patch again and I can shoot strings of shots before loading becomes a difficult if I'm just playing around on the range.

When I'm hunting or sighting in however I always shoot from a clean bore, every shot. It's the first shot that counts in hunting and during sight-in I want that same condition and same accuracy on every shot.

I'm also not a fan of putting plastic down the barrel of a sidelock, modern reproduction and/or certainly not an original. You can do it if you want, might have good results, might not. Things modern aren't automatically better and the tightly-patched roundball and/or conical have killed more men and taken more game than any plague in history. Hard for me to argue with those statistics...

Sorry for the rant, just trying to answer your questions, hope I didn't step on any toes....
 
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I do have one other series of questions but first I want to say Thanks for the quick responses! Long rifle thanks for the in depth response. I have a couple questions on what you said first. You said that you clean between shots. Do you use a cleaner or alcohol or what? Next you that you push the fouling down almost the the bottom. When shooting minie balls are they lubed (with what lube) and are your patches lubed with roundballs ( and with what lube). Then do you place the powder over powder wad, patch with projectile? Just wanted to check that. What did you mean exactly when you said that you don't believe in shooting a fouled shot? That question also goes around the use of a over the powder wad. I saw your list of purposes but what does that do for the fouling (if anything). You said that most sidelocks fire best when clean. Not familiar with this term so does this include percussion or flintlock or both. Lastly Can you please explain the cleaning method you use again (maybe use pictures or something). I couldn't quite visualize the part with the funnel nipple and one end being in water. And with this cleaning method what pieces of the gun (flintlock percussion etc) cannot get wet? Then on to my other string of questions over a little different topic. one of the main things I can't completely understand is the size ball variations in a muzzleloader. I see for instance that if I had a 75 caliber gun has two size balls. A .715 and .730 size ball. Why the difference? and some of the balls are just slightly oversized. Why is this especially when the rifle could be smoothbore and need a patch. Why in that case would you want an oversize ball? I ask this because I notice most people just shoot a round ball with a patch so i don't know why a roundball would be slightly bigger than the caliber your firing.. Thanks for all the help!
 
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Whew! You have questions that lead me to believe you're extremely new to black powder, certainly to the traditional aspect of it, so the first thing I'm gonna do is make a couple of suggestions to save you some time on this learning curve, it can be a long one.

Back before this glorious source of reference that is the internet you learned from a fellow enthusiast and/or by trial and error. Now there are black powder shooters all over the place, most are extremely willing to share. You'll also find a wide variety of traditional weapons and shooters of those weapons. Do a local internet search and find a BP club that you can link up with, preferrably before a big shoot. Those folks can help you tremendously. Also, if you want to PM me with specific questions I'd be glad to help but at this point you've got alot and the local BP club can give you the benfit of hands-on, face-to-face experience.

The second piece of advice I'd give anyone, new or old, that wants to really learn black powder is to Google Dutch Shoultz's "Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System". Even after all my years of trial and error and information that's available on the web it showed me more of WHY things happen as they do in a BP weapon, how to identify the problem, and how to correct it without having to put three hundred rounds and two pounds of powder downrange.
I'm not an expert, just a shooter with 30 years of BP shooting under my belt, and there are surely far more experienced people on THR than I. I learned more of the mechanics, the hows AND whys, and how to attain consistent accuracy from Mr. Shoultz's pamphlet than anything I ever learned on the web. Best $20 I ever spent.
 
fishblade2 said:
You said that you clean between shots. Do you use a cleaner or alcohol or what? Next you that you push the fouling down almost the the bottom. When shooting minie balls are they lubed (with what lube) and are your patches lubed with roundballs ( and with what lube). Then do you place the powder over powder wad, patch with projectile? Just wanted to check that.
Click to expand...

Yes, swab with whatever works best for you.
Bore Butter works fine as a patch and conical lube, or try another commercial lube.
The loading order is correct, the over powder wad is an option.

fishblade2 said:
What did you mean exactly when you said that you don't believe in shooting a fouled shot?
Click to expand...

Some guns shoot better after taking a fouling and some guns don't. If the first shot is way out of the group, then either swab between each shot so that the barrel is always fired clean, or take a fouling shot first to eliminate the flyer from the group. Inlines generally like a clean barrel for best accuracy while sidelocks can often need a fouling shot.
Some traditional club shoots will give the option of taking a fouling shot on a side range. But some folks don't need it.

fishblade2 said:
You said that most sidelocks fire best when clean. Not familiar with this term so does this include percussion or flintlock or both.
Click to expand...

Sidelock is a general term that describes the traditional lock as being located on one side of the gun. Thus the hammer is not located directly in the middle back part of the gun but is off to the side. I believe this includes both percussion and flintlocks.

fishblade2 said:
Lastly Can you please explain the cleaning method you use again (maybe use pictures or something). I couldn't quite visualize the part with the funnel nipple and one end being in water. And with this cleaning method what pieces of the gun (flintlock percussion etc) cannot get wet?
Click to expand...

He's referring to using this style of cleaning tube assembly and/or a funnel to put water into your barrel.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03124

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03209

You need to make sure that the fitting on the tube fits the threads of your nipple hole. Once the fitting is attached, place one end of the tube into a bucket of soapy water. Then the water can be drawn up into the barrel with the patched jag on a cleaning rod which is used as a plunger. By pumping the rod up and down, water enters the barrel and flushes out the residue. If you have a really long barrel then a funnel can be used to add more water at the muzzle, or for rinsing.

fishblade2 said:
Then on to my other string of questions over a little different topic. one of the main things I can't completely understand is the size ball variations in a muzzleloader. I see for instance that if I had a 75 caliber gun has two size balls. A .715 and .730 size ball. Why the difference? and some of the balls are just slightly oversized. Why is this especially when the rifle could be smoothbore and need a patch. Why in that case would you want an oversize ball? I ask this because I notice most people just shoot a round ball with a patch so i don't know why a roundball would be slightly bigger than the caliber your firing.. Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...

Large caliber smoothbores are generally loaded with a ball that is approximately .02 under bore size. This is because they are often combined with thicker patches, and because as the gun accumulates fouling, it gets harder to load. So the smaller ball makes it easier to load. Also, the thicker patch holds more lube which helps to keep the fouling soft and easier loading for more shots between swabbing.
However looser fitting balls won't always be as accurate as tight fitting balls.
The tighter the ball and patch, the better the accuracy.
The closer the ball is to bore size, and the tighter the patch, the better the accuracy.
However, that means that swabbing between shots is more necessary.
With rifled barrels, the rifling grooves not only holds more fouling, but it allows for the additional compression of the patch material. So a much tighter ball can be used. Even a ball that is larger than the land-to-land bore diameter. The excess patch material and lead gets squeezed into the rifling grooves making the best long range accuracy possible. But it can be very hard to load and to start, and sometimes a mallet is needed to load such a tight ball with patch. So extra lube or special lubes are used like Teflon coated patches.
Since smoothbores don't have rifling grooves, the oversize balls will be harder to load, especially after the barrel gets fouled. The tightest practical combination for a smoothbore is usually with a ball .005 under bore diameter with a patch. There's room for the patch to compress, but not as much as with a rifled barrel that has rifling grooves. So avoid over size balls with a smoothbore, especially the large smoothbore which requires a lot of powder and fouls quickly.
To recap:
The more powder the more fouling.
The looser the ball, the thicker the patch.
The thicker the patch, the more lube that it can hold for more shots between swabbing.
But the tighter the ball and patch the better the accuracy.
But looser combinations usually shoot well enough for general target and plinking purposes, especially from the larger bores and guns with either very primitive sights or without any rear sight like the Brown Bess. :)
 
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I strongly second longrifle346's suggestion to obtain Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System. Very well worth the time, money and effort.
 
Thanks so much for all the help and time to respond to this questions. Yes Longrifle I'm new to the traditional side of shooting but I get some of the common concepts despite some of my dumb questions... I Have one other question. I just bought a black powder pistol. I was wondering the best process for cleaning this. What should be taken off, what step procedure would be recommended? Can I wash this one with water as well (it's not a sidelock but a revolver). And How would I clean between shots on this one that would work best? Thanks. By the way i will be getting that Dutch Schoultz's book as soon as possible.
 
Revolver's don't usually need to be cleaned between shots.
The cylinder pin (or arbor) and cylinder face can be wiped down when the action becomes fouled and sluggish. And the barrel can be swabbed with a pistol rod if necessary.
Although not necessary, chamber lube, lube pills or lubed wads can help to keep the barrel fouling soft and relatively clean while shooting.
Lots of folks use Ballistol (or Ballistol mixed with water) for lubing their revolver and wiping it down during a shooting session.
Ballistol can be applied at the range to soften up the fouling prior to going home, and applying it can buy some extra time instead of needing to clean it immediately after the range session is over.
Ballistol is mostly mineral oil with ingredients added to enable it to emulsify or mix with water plus to help neutralize harmful BP salts. Mineral oil laxative works as a partial substitute but won't mix with water.
For cleaning there's the water method. The grips, frame, barrel, cylinder and nipples can be separated, then dunked or briefly soaked in warm soapy water and scrubbed clean.
Pay extra attention to the nipples and threads and remove any fouling that remains.
Dry and then be sure to lube the whole gun afterward and apply some breech plug grease or anti-seize to the nipple threads.
 
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now you said that chamber lube or lubed patches is something that can be done to soften fouling but I though that placing lubed patches between powder and ball or placing lube at the end of the chamber is was necessary to keep from all the barrels going off at once (I think it's called chained firing).
 
Bore butter is meant to season your barrel alone, not clean it. Before you put the butter on run patches with BP cleaner on it until they are coming out pretty much clean, then run a dry patch (important) followed with bore butter. Doing that I can shoot my Encore 3 times with only mild physical strain on the last load. First nearly drops in, second one with assistance, third with a little push.
 
fishblade2 said:
now you said that chamber lube or lubed patches is something that can be done to soften fouling but I though that placing lubed patches between powder and ball or placing lube at the end of the chamber is was necessary to keep from all the barrels going off at once (I think it's called chained firing).
Click to expand...

Chamber lube and lubed wads serve a dual purpose, to help keep fouling soft and also to help prevent chain fires but only originating from the front of the chamber. They're optional and the lube is optional.
Wads and over powder cards in revolvers can also be used dry without lube. They can also help to protect the powder from moisture and contamination.
 
I stated earlier that the only thing you season nowadays are cast iron pans when you can find them. I'm not a metallurgist so I'll respond by paraphrasing a source in traditional muzzleloading much more experienced than I am. Be glad to provide a direct link to anyone, just shoot me a PM.....

You CAN'T season a modern barrel and there's no need to as the pores aren't there to season. Modern barrels are made of steel, an alloy of iron and other metals, which produces a lot harder metal. In the 18th century barrels were forged from soft iron, the barrels were seasoned, often by the gunmaker. He would coat the rifling with a thick layer of fat, then heat the barrel up in his forge, and burn out the fat. What was left in the open pores of the iron bore was the "seasoning", that prevented the bore from rusting. Today's metals are harder, cleaner, and don't have all of those pores from forging or impurities. All that's needed to protect a modern bore is a thorough cleaning and drying to remove any corrosives/moisture and a protectorant(Hoppe's, gun oil, Barricade) to provide a barrier to air(moisture).

If you feel the need to season an original 18th century barrel, have at it. If you're trying to season a modern steel reproduction barrel you're wasting your time....my two cents and worth what you paid for it.
 
Thanks for the information. I apologize for not reading all the posts before I made my addition; it's just that reading the whole thread over is getting time consuming. That being said, it is still important to keep your bore dry, and if bore butter does nothing else it does create a barrier. I was disgusted when I found my most recent muzzleloader had a small oxidized area in the barrel, but a thorough (and I mean thorough) cleaning, a few shots, and some butter later, I've thankfully had no brownish-red patches since.
 
I season my bullets with bacon grease for the Muslims. I also use Old Bay,Kikkoman,Lea & Perrins, A1steak sauce + Pace salsa. Makes the bullets go smoother out the barrel. No joke really try it
 
Does it help make the venison juicy and flavorful right when the deer gets shot? Maybe I should aim for the loins...
 
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