questions on .22 hornet vs .223rem pressures and barrel prices and stuff

[redneck]

I'm thinking of building a simple falling block action rifle. A friend recommended a book by Frank Dehaas that has pretty simple plans. I still have to buy it and look stuff over to make sure I really have enough equipment. I make folding knives and stuff so I'm pretty sure I do, as long as I can find the time to do it all.
Anyhow, the friend was building one in .22hornet and talked like the plans were also included for .22LR and .22Mag.
I'll probably go with a rimfire on the first one just so I'm not dealing with quite as much pressure.
But I've been thinking that a centerfire .22 would be the best addition for me since I don't have anything between my .22LR and .54 great plains rifle.

So first off I was wondering how much higher pressure does .223rem have over .22hornet?
.223 rem would be a much nicer choice for me since I don't reload. If its not going to be safe with the action plans, I obviously won't even try it. But if they're close I might try beefing things up if I'm pretty confident with the design and building it. You can rest assured I will be extremely careful with this and will call it all off if I'm not completely confident in how it goes together, and even then the gun will be fired from a distance in a vice the first few times.
Also, since I'll have to buy a barrel, which would be easier and cheaper to find?
Am I right assuming that they have the same bore diameter and just have a different chamber? I'll need a finish reamer for the chamber too, I'm guessing brownells has both but don't know.
Any advice on this? I know about the legalities, the rifle can never be sold or transferred to another individual EVER since its not taxed/registered. And I can't ask a gunsmith or anybody to work on the receiver.

Any recommendations for a custom barrel? I want something of good quality but I don't have a lot of money. And seeing as how I'm building the action I doubt it will be worth a match grade barrel.

Thanks for any info. Like I said right now I'm just trying to find out more info. I haven't even decided for sure to build the gun.

 

[theCZ]

If I recall correctly, the 22-Hornet uses less than half the gun powder that a .223 Rem does, so that should give you an idea of the types of pressure we are talking about.

 

[redneck]

Thanks
I just talked to another guy and he said that the particular plans I'm looking at would be marginal. There are other plans included for a different type of lock that will handle much more pressure. I'll probably build the simple one first in either hornet or .22mag and see where I go from there

Would still like recommendations for a barrel.

 

[Jim Watson]

E.R. Shaw is not bad, a friend of mine has one on a .280.
You might could find a takeoff Remington or other factory barrel and cut the breech end off and make a new shank and chamber. There are some Rem-Turk Mausers around like that.
Do you have a lathe to contour a barrel blank, turn the shank and cut a chamber with?

 

[Coltdriver]

Go to gunpartscorp.com and take a look at a barrel for a #3 ruger in 22 Hornet. That is a barrel for a falling block action so it may be easier to adapt to your plans. The barrel is only 68 dollars. A .22 Hornet is an excellent 150 yard cartridge.

For a 22 Hornet the lymans 48th reloading book shows a 55 grain #2 alloy bullet loaded with 6.5 grains of H110 at 20,700 CUP, 5.6 grains of SR-4795 at 13,500 CUP and 9.5 grains of Rx7 at 15,300 CUP.

A more typical bullet weight for a 22 Hornet is in the 35 to 45 grain size.

By comparison if you go to a .223 you start over 30,000 CUP and 50,000 CUP is within the realm of the cartridge.

Let us know how you progress and drop us a picture when you get it tested.

 

[redneck]

Thanks for all the help so far!
Unfortunately I don't have a lathe. I figured I would have to have a barrel made and would be able to get them to turn the end down to a size I could thread with a die.
The other option is buying a prethreaded barrel that has threads I can match and tap my receiver ring for.
There's a few machine shops close by I could probably get help with the threading, but I'd like to do it all here by myself if I can.
As far as the chamber, I was planning on getting one cut short that I could use a finish reamer on. I guess its obvious I hardly know what I'm getting into. I ordered the book today and will do a lot of reading and looking around first.
Its going to be awhile before I get this finished because I have a couple knife orders to finish first and school is really kickin my ??? lately. I'll keep you guys up to date though
Thanks again for the ideas!

 

[Jim K]

The Hornet and the .223 have the same bullet diameter, but not the same bullets. There are bullets specially made for the Hornet and called "Hornet bullets". The reason is that the bullets for cartridges in the .223 class have heavier jackets and won't expand at Hornet velocities. As to pressures, Hornet pressures are in the pistol class, around 20,000 cup tops, while the .223 is a high intensity cartridge in the 50,000 cup range. So an action built for the .223 should be strong enough for the Hornet, but not vice versa.

The Hornet barrel will also require a slower twist, probably 1-16, than the 1-12 or faster commonly used in the .223.

In other words, just doing a .22 Hornet and then changing to .223 by rechambering probably won't work out very well.

I recommend getting a Brownells catalog, which you can order from their web site (www.brownells.com).

Prethreaded barrels are available but only for a few rifles like the 98 Mauser. I don't recommend trying to thread a barrel with a die; sorry, but you will probably just bugger it up. A lathe really is essential for barrel work.

You will also need other tools and machinery that a custom knife maker may not have, like a milling machine, a drill press capable of handling large bits (1" or more), large taps, etc.

Yes, I think you may need to do some reading and research before getting into making actions. If you choose to go ahead, good luck!

Jim

 

[redneck]

Thanks Jim
I may have somebody thread the barrel for me, haven't figured it all out yet. I could alwayys use a wedge or pin set up to hold it on too. I figured it was do able with a threading die because I know someone who says he's done it.
I wasn't going to try to ream a .22hornet chamber into a .223 rem chamber. The reason I asked about bore diameter was just out of curiosity. I know I have to get a barrel chambered specifically for what I want to use. The pressure difference is quite a bit though, thanks for pointing that out. I definitely don't want to go with .223rem for this.
I may not be able to do any of it at all, but I have the plans ordered and I want to try. When I started making knives everybody told me there was no way I could make a frame lock without some serious milling equipment, but I have one in my pocket that I made myself Whether or not I can make a gun I have no clue, but I'm too stubborn not to try
Worse case scenario at this point is I have a $20 book thats an interesting read and maybe a few more peices of scrap steel on the workbench.

Thanks for all the info guys.

Oh yeah, does anyone know where I could find more info on those #3 Ruger barrels. The price is right, but it didn't give any info or even pictures on that site.

 

[Jim Watson]

The first thing to do is to get the book. Frank deHaas spelled out what was required to make his designs. His last action, the Chicopee, was intended to be made with a minimum of heavy machining. As I recall - I don't have the book and the original magazine articles are long gone - there were two versions, a rimfire and a centerfire. I THINK the centerfire would hold a .223. Read the book.

The .22 Hornet is no pipsqueak. The 20,000 CUP pressures the guys are quoting are for light cast bullet loads. SAAMI maximum spec for Hornet is 43,000 CUP. .223 is 52,000 plus its larger diameter increases thrust against the breechblock. Early Hornets were .223" and 16" twist because so many of the early experimental and wildcat versions were done in .22 lr barrels. Now they are .224" like most all .22 centerfires. I don't think the twist is critical, I'd use a 14" like a .222 or .22-250 because barrels are so commonly available and a takeoff of whatever twist would probably do ok.

A friend of mine has what we call a Ruger No 2 - a No 3 with No 1 stock. It started out as a .22 Hornet and had been rechambered to .22 K-Hornet before he bought it. It never shot real well; the gunsmith said the best thing to do to improve its accuracy was to rechamber to .223. He did and it is now more accurate, with a new throat and a case size better suited to current powders. But the Ruger is a very strong action.

Another thing to consider for a light single shot would be a pistol caliber. A .357 Magnum would be versatile for a non-reloader.

 

[Coltdriver]

try www.gunpartscorp.com

navigate to the ruger number 3 parts list.

 

[redneck]

Thanks Coltdriver
I found the barrels, I was just wondering if there was somewhere to find out the technical stuff like diameter,TPI, and all that.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sure there is, in the various Frank deHaas books.
His original 'Single Shot Rifles and Actions' gives the Ruger No 1 barrel shank at 1.00" diameter, 16 TPI of "V" threads, .875" long, with an extractor notch on the lower left. My edition predates the No 3 but I am pretty sure it has the same barrel shank

 

[redneck]

Thanks alot Jim
That gives me an idea of what I'm dealing with.
I have a huge Industrial machine tool supply store about 15 miles away and I have to stop in there tommorrow for some more O1 to make some skinners with, so I'll see what they have in the way of taps and stuff. Not buying till I'm ready to use it, but should get an idea of how much searching I'll have to do.
Now if only the mail man would hurry along with my book

 

[Jim Watson]

Saw an advertisement and had an idea that might save trouble... IF you think a .22 lr or .22 WMR is enough for a first homebuilt.
Ruger 10-22 barrels are a slip fit held in by a half-dovetail block. The only cuts in the action are the hole for the smooth barrel shank and two holes drilled and tapped for holddown screws. And Ruger barrels are cheap.

 

[redneck]

Thanks,I've seen those too, and so far its plan B. Just about any caliber I can do safely is cool for the first one. It would just be even better if it was one I don't already have.
I want to look over his hammer and trigger designs in the book before I make any concrete decisions on centerfire vs. rimfire. I don't have too much experience wth centerfire, but it seems like you don't need nearly as hard a strike for reliable ignition, which might make it easier to make a decent trigger pull.

Even if this doesn't pan out its been fun to think about