Questions on silencers and sub-sonic ammo.
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Travis McGee
Member
Tim,
If you want to analogize the courtesy of quiet guns at ranges such as in Finland, to customs in some countries where you claim it is normal to let strangers boff your wife, I think you are demonstrating a rather loosely connected mind.
As far as the SHTF scenario, where did you pull murder out of your hat? I was suggesting that if you wanted to hunt (hunt: game animals, for meat to eat) with bad guys in the vicinity, you might want to use a suppressor, to not announce your presence to them with loud shots.
How you hallucinated that into "murder" is beyond me. Probably the same part of your brain which analogizes quieter guns at the range to letting strangers do your wife.
If you want to analogize the courtesy of quiet guns at ranges such as in Finland, to customs in some countries where you claim it is normal to let strangers boff your wife, I think you are demonstrating a rather loosely connected mind.
As far as the SHTF scenario, where did you pull murder out of your hat? I was suggesting that if you wanted to hunt (hunt: game animals, for meat to eat) with bad guys in the vicinity, you might want to use a suppressor, to not announce your presence to them with loud shots.
How you hallucinated that into "murder" is beyond me. Probably the same part of your brain which analogizes quieter guns at the range to letting strangers do your wife.
Travis McGee
Member
Jay Kominek: Thanks for the assist, buddy! GMTA!
Exactly...
Travis
You say "SHTF" and "meat hunting" in the same breath, here...(?)
You say "hunting shots will be like a dinner bell far a gang of bandits...they will not be frightened off...they are gang-bangers..."
My apologies if I misinterpreted, but you seemed to go back and forth between two entirely different situations. I don't hunt in urban areas infested with gang-bangers, maybe I live a sheltered life. When I hunt, I'm not trying to hide my existence from humans, only the game. I agree that it is wise to be as transparent as possible to gang members. Again, those two worlds never meet in my area, so perhaps the scenario you outline is not as farfetched as I had thought. I apologize.
As far as the hearing protection/courtesy noise reduction arguments go, I give, you folks have turned me around on this one.
My comments should have been aimed more directly at the original poster. Frankly, I find erohacker's postings to be a little too "enthusiastic". This is an individual who shows no apparent interest in genuine game hunting. The poster seems obsessed with anti-personnel weaponry and ammunition of types that are much more appropriate for military operations than personal protection/sport shooting/hunting. I'm not even sure that I want our soldiers to be that "eager" about anti-personnel shooting.
I sincerely apologize to all who I may have offended; either through ignorance of the subject matter, or by overstating my arguments. I must admit, I am fond of debate, particularly in areas which have largely justifiable positions on both sides of an issue. I certainly will accept my portion of the blame for allowing the debate to descend into a lower form of communication.
With that being said, I hope we can all agree that honest disagreements are healthy. I certainly harbor no ill will towards anyone. So there's the olive branch, perhaps one day we can meet over a pitcher beer/juleps/sweet tea instead of an argument.
Travis McGee
Member
Where did I mention "urban?" I didn't. My point is that during a period of social upheaval and marauding gangs ("SHTF") you will want to be extra stealthy to avoid attracting the attention of said maruading gangs. If you need to take a deer or a hog to feed your family, you will want to do so as quietly as possible. For this reason, a bow hunting rig would also be a smart addition to any "SHTF" rig. Also, in a for real SHTF scenario, folks will have to decide for themselves if they want to put an improvised "can" suppressor on the end of this or that firearm, so it will be smart to arm oneself with knowledge of suppressors today.
Travis McGee
Member
Tim:
PS: I salute you for making amends above.
Cheers,
Matt/Travis
PS: I salute you for making amends above.
Cheers,
Matt/Travis
HI express
Member
My experience?
I am not an LEO, but in my job capacity, I was often assigned to the officers who served warrants on gang houses and other houses where illegal activity occurred.
In the infancy stage of this "task force" they didn't know where to place our inspectors. So as assigned, we were placed real close to the entry teams.
One night we were assigned to an illicit gambling house, also known for distributing illegal drugs, and this house also acted as a source for midnight shootings.
So here I was behind the entry team when the Lt. leading the team signed that there were dogs loose in the rear yard. In the dim light I counted 7..looked like Rottweillers. He picked up his suppressed MP5 and moved forward, when one of them started to charge. The Lt. fired a short burst..the dog stopped and walked in a circle. It walked into the corner of the yard and laid down. (eventually it bled out)
Same thing with the second dog.
The armorer checked it the next day, but the Lt. had to go to Virginia for interagency training. That's when he found out from the FBI that they had run into the same problems with their suppressed MP-5s.
Turned out the suppressors were tightened down too low and it slowed down the bullet and the cycling of the weapon enough so that a 9mm did not act like a typical 9mm. They were acting like subsonic rounds.
Take it for what it's worth. They did fix the problem right away but suppressors aren't what everyone thinks they are.
I am not an LEO, but in my job capacity, I was often assigned to the officers who served warrants on gang houses and other houses where illegal activity occurred.
In the infancy stage of this "task force" they didn't know where to place our inspectors. So as assigned, we were placed real close to the entry teams.
One night we were assigned to an illicit gambling house, also known for distributing illegal drugs, and this house also acted as a source for midnight shootings.
So here I was behind the entry team when the Lt. leading the team signed that there were dogs loose in the rear yard. In the dim light I counted 7..looked like Rottweillers. He picked up his suppressed MP5 and moved forward, when one of them started to charge. The Lt. fired a short burst..the dog stopped and walked in a circle. It walked into the corner of the yard and laid down. (eventually it bled out)
Same thing with the second dog.
The armorer checked it the next day, but the Lt. had to go to Virginia for interagency training. That's when he found out from the FBI that they had run into the same problems with their suppressed MP-5s.
Turned out the suppressors were tightened down too low and it slowed down the bullet and the cycling of the weapon enough so that a 9mm did not act like a typical 9mm. They were acting like subsonic rounds.
Take it for what it's worth. They did fix the problem right away but suppressors aren't what everyone thinks they are.
B
BeLikeTrey
Guest
Mp5sd
basically slows the bullet to something more like .380 balistics than 9mm. the ports in the barrel are what do the slowing, all the can does is trap gas and heat. Now, being supressed, there is backpressure and the SD tends to foul out easier with residue etc.
basically slows the bullet to something more like .380 balistics than 9mm. the ports in the barrel are what do the slowing, all the can does is trap gas and heat. Now, being supressed, there is backpressure and the SD tends to foul out easier with residue etc.
Marshall
Member
Travis, do you invision this happening anytime soon? Where do you live that would have marauding gangs where deer and hogs reside and also where you can shoot legally with neighbors around? I see you have put down San Diego.
It's legal in Utah. I use one because I like to be able to hear what is going on around me, but don't want to go deaf. Earplugs make it hard to hear my surroundings. Electronic muffs work well, but are really uncomfortable when it's hot out.
By your reasoning, we should outlaw hunting with a bow & arrow. Or we should ban bows completely. After all, they often make less noise than a suppressed firearm, making it "easier to poach, hunt at night or hunt out of season."
Kenneth Lew
Member
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Hi Express,
The armorer checked it the next day, but the Lt. had to go to Virginia for interagency training. That's when he found out from the FBI that they had run into the same problems with their suppressed MP-5s.
Turned out the suppressors were tightened down too low and it slowed down the bullet and the cycling of the weapon enough so that a 9mm did not act like a typical 9mm. They were acting like subsonic rounds.
Take it for what it's worth. They did fix the problem right away but suppressors aren't what everyone thinks they are.
What the hell are you talking about? I do not know of any 9mm suppressor on a standard MP5 that reduces the velocity of a std. 9mm rd. down to subsonic.
Are you sure you are not talking about a MP5SD? The barrel of the MP5SD is ported to allow the bleed off of gases to reduce the velocity of 9mm down to subsonic.
Kenneth Lew
The armorer checked it the next day, but the Lt. had to go to Virginia for interagency training. That's when he found out from the FBI that they had run into the same problems with their suppressed MP-5s.
Turned out the suppressors were tightened down too low and it slowed down the bullet and the cycling of the weapon enough so that a 9mm did not act like a typical 9mm. They were acting like subsonic rounds.
Take it for what it's worth. They did fix the problem right away but suppressors aren't what everyone thinks they are.
What the hell are you talking about? I do not know of any 9mm suppressor on a standard MP5 that reduces the velocity of a std. 9mm rd. down to subsonic.
Are you sure you are not talking about a MP5SD? The barrel of the MP5SD is ported to allow the bleed off of gases to reduce the velocity of 9mm down to subsonic.
Kenneth Lew
As others have noted, the MP5-SD does slow the bullets down to subsonic velocities through barrel porting. (nothing to "turn down too low". It's just how the gun is designed.)
This was done so that standard 115 or 124 gr. ammo could be used, and still not produce a sonic crack. This makes for a pretty quiet gun. But as you noted, terminal balistics were less than impressive. H&K recommends against using the heavier 147 gr. bullets in the MP5-SD because of unacceptable pressure levels for that particular set-up. (has something to do with the angle on the roller-locking mechanism being different for proper functioning than with other MP5s.)
I understand that the British had the same problems with their intergrally suppressed Stens during and after WWII.
I have read where some SWAT teams relegated their MP5-SDs to "guard dog removal" only. And even here they had problems.
A better set-up would be to use a "traditional" MP5 with a muzzle can. These could then safely utilize the subsonic 147 gr. ammo. This would not produce a sonic crack, but would impart more energy on target.
LiquidTension
Member
I don't hunt anymore, but if I did I'd rather use a suppressed weapon. I'm not a poacher, and there is no reason that I shouldn't be able to save my hearing just because I'm out in the woods.
I fully plan on purchasing an integrally suppressed MkII (or maybe just having mine built into one) when funds allow for no other reason than it is cool. I am not an assassin or any other type of criminal, therefore there is no legitimate reason for me not be be able to own one. Plus, if you live in a residential area and want to do some plinking, a suppressed .22 rifle could be fired without alarming the neighbors - as long as you have an appropriate backstop and it is legal in your area, of course.
I fully plan on purchasing an integrally suppressed MkII (or maybe just having mine built into one) when funds allow for no other reason than it is cool. I am not an assassin or any other type of criminal, therefore there is no legitimate reason for me not be be able to own one. Plus, if you live in a residential area and want to do some plinking, a suppressed .22 rifle could be fired without alarming the neighbors - as long as you have an appropriate backstop and it is legal in your area, of course.
ctdonath
Member
Chalk up another one pro-suppressor.
This notion that "suppressor = evil" is absurd.
Suppressors...
- Save hearing
- Improve accuracy
- Reduce recoil
- Reduce noise pollution/annoyance
- Reduce unwanted attention
They are also hardly "silencers", reducing the noise only from ear-damaging loud (>160dB) to just plain loud (120-150dB ... which ranges from "planes on runway" loud to "threshold of pain" loud).
This notion that "suppressor = evil" is absurd.
Suppressors...
- Save hearing
- Improve accuracy
- Reduce recoil
- Reduce noise pollution/annoyance
- Reduce unwanted attention
They are also hardly "silencers", reducing the noise only from ear-damaging loud (>160dB) to just plain loud (120-150dB ... which ranges from "planes on runway" loud to "threshold of pain" loud).
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