Quick Specific Question on 44 Mag Load

[Billy Jack]

Only interested in one specific powder bullet combination, 300 gr LFN cast lead bullet using 2400 powder.
I know it's a long shot but maybe someone has used this specific combination and can tell me the max amount of 2400 you have used with the 300 gr bullet and what your experience was. I'd like to take your loads and back them off, then work up to them in my Marlin 1894S with microgroove barrel. I loaded some of these bullets with 9 gr of unique (1150 fps) and they keyholed. I want to test this bullet at higher speeds to see if they will stabilize. I read in several places that 300 gr works fine if sized correctly (I use .432") and driven at near max speeds (I'm looking for around 1600 fps). They cycle great in the gun and I think if it will fly well it would be a great bullet for the gun. I do believe as I've read that the 300 gr is probably max for this 1 in 38' twist barrel.
Thanks

 

[blarby]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you want to get a 300gr projectile to do 1600+ fps in 44 mag ?

When you get this one dialed in, let me know too !

Honestly ( and this is coming from of all people, me ) I think your experimenting is gonna take you in a bad direction.

 

[savanahsdad]

love my 1894 44mag , but that micro grove barrel is only good for 240gr or less ,with cast the best I found is 200gr lasser cast , a year or so back one of the righters for Handload Magzine said he tried this and that for heavy bullets and in the end he had the gun re-barreled ,

 

[Buck13]

love my 1894 44mag , but that micro grove barrel is only good for 240gr or less ,with cast the best I found is 200gr lasser cast , a year or so back one of the righters for Handload Magzine said he tried this and that for heavy bullets and in the end he had the gun re-barreled ,

John Taffin says otherwise:

"Micro Groove Marlin rifle barrels are not supposed to shoot cast bullets very well; this one does just fine. The secret is choosing the right cast bullets with gas checked versions giving the best results. Groups are for three shots at 50 yards with a 4X scope in place:
<snip>
NEI 429.295GC/21.5 gr. WW296 1547 fps 1”

From http://sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/bot44c38.htm

One inch at 50 yards isn't going to excite bench-rest shooters, but it seems OK to me. Whether you can do that with 2400, you'll have to find out.

 

[savanahsdad]

John Taffin says otherwise:

"Micro Groove Marlin rifle barrels are not supposed to shoot cast bullets very well; this one does just fine. The secret is choosing the right cast bullets with gas checked versions giving the best results. Groups are for three shots at 50 yards with a 4X scope in place:
<snip>
NEI 429.295GC/21.5 gr. WW296 1547 fps 1”

From http://sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/bot44c38.htm

One inch at 50 yards isn't going to excite bench-rest shooters, but it seems OK to me. Whether you can do that with 2400, you'll have to find out.

you may want to do a re-read ......... I shoot cast in my micro-grove just fine , up to 240gr,

 

[Buck13]

Yeah, I got that. And he says a 295 grain works for him, which is close to what the OP wants to use. That was my point.

 

[Billy Jack]

Just to add a little more info. I do use gas checked bullets. Everything I have read about MG barrels from knowledgeable shooters says the problem is not the grooves but the bore size. They are all oversized, so if you don't use a fat bullet, I use .432', then they will not shoot worth a crap. If I can't use the 300 gr, I have already worked up a load of 20 gr of 2400 with a 260 gr WFN LBT bullet at .432". It shoots and groups quite well and clocks 1654 FPS and is a rather mild feeling load in the Marlin and is below max in my Redhawk.
I have the 300 gr bullets because the 260 WFN wide profile is too tight in the Blackhawk cylinder. So for the Blackhawk I loaded a lighter load of 9 gr of Unique and that is the load that key holed in the Marlin. The keyholed bullet was only going 1150 fps when it key holed. Everything I've read about heavy bullets in slow twist barrels says you have to have velocity at the high end to stabilize the bullet. Based on Hornady's Ballistic calculator the 300 gr bullet at 1600 fps muzzle velocity won't drop to 1150 fps until its out at about 200 yards which is way beyond the intended use for the gun.

 

[bluetopper]

You're doing the right thing in staying away from Unique for a 300 grainer. I'd fill 2400 up to the bottom of the bullet, not compressed, and try it out.

 

[Billy Jack]

This morning I shot loads with 300 gr LFN LBT bullets with gas checks and sized .432". I used 2400 powder and worked up from 16 gr to 20 gr, 1/2 gr at a time. The velocities were completely linear from 1358 fps for the 16 gr load to 1648 fps with the 20 gr load. The POI was pretty much the same regardless of powder (at 50 yds with std open sights) until 19.5 and 20gr. Primers looked pretty much the same from about 17.5gr up to 20 gr. I decided to back off the max and go with 19 gr. It shot good and grouped just fine for my eyes. These same bullets were key holing at 25 yards at 1150 fps. In the hotter load the bullet won't even slow down to 1150 fps until it is out past my open sighted usual range of about 150 yds. BTW the 25 yard keyholing was just barely noticeable on the paper so I'm confident that if I keep the gun in its intended use for hogs etc. I will do fine. If I need more power then I should have brought my 45-70.

I do think that the 300 gr bullet is as heavy as you should try to go with a Marlin 1894 and it's 1 in 38 twist. 300 gr may not work in all Marlin 1894's either. You just have to try it and learn for yourself and your rifle.

 

[mulyhuntr]

20gr of 2400 is way over max for a 300 gr bullet, isn't it? My Lyman manual tops out at 17.5 for a 300gr jsp and 15.7 for 300gr lead...

 

[Billy Jack]

The 20 gr of 2400 with the 300 gr LFN bullet didn't seem to be too much. The increase of speed as I worked up from 16 gr to 20 was completely linear. Each 1/2 grain increased the speed about 2%. The look of the primers was esentially the same from 16-20. The recoil just came up gradually.
I would think that if the 20 gr was too much I would have seen some evidence as in a spike in speed, severly flattened primers, or excessive recoil.
My problem is that I am just not finding much in the way of load data or others experiences to compare to.

 

[birdshot8's]

Billyjack, How well are your loads cycling? I have always stayed with the 240 and 265 bullets after being told bullets longer than the 265 would not cycle through the action of the Marlin 1894.

 

[Billy Jack]

Both loads cycle very smoothly. I have cycle tested them extensively because I had heard the same. I didn't pick these 2 bullets for this rifle. These were my pistol loads. The 260 for a Redhawk and the 300 for a Super Blackhawk.
I just thought I would use them as a starting point. The 260 shot good. The 300 keyholed, but it was in a very slow load (9gr of Unique at 1150fps)
I plan to load up a new batch of each, 260 gr w/20gr 2400 and 300 gr w/19gr 2400. Now that I have mounted a scope on the rifle I will be able to shoot them at 100 yds and actually see how they fly.

 

[Billy Jack]

Well you guys were right as usual. I really thought I had a winner in the 300 gr LFN .432" LBT bullet with 19 gr of 2400 at 1580 fps. I loaded up a bunch more today and went out to the range this time with the gun scoped for better accuaracy. I never could get adequate groups with the 300 gr. I just happened to have a bunch of white heavy poster board that I drew some black bullseyes on for my sighting in job. This thick white paper is great for showing the tiniest little bit of keyholing and yes I still had some with the 300 gr bullet at 100 yds. Not only would it group erratically it couldn't even make a clean hole.
So my load for this 1894 for the time being will be my old Ruger Redhawk load of 20 gr of 2400 with a 260 gr WFN .432" LBT bullet at 1660 fps. It groups about 1" at 25 yds and about 3" at 100 yds. Not wonderful but more than suffiecient for my close range pig hunting. The really nice part is the trajectory is just what I wanted. It is dead on at 25 and 100 yds. Only about an inch high at midrange and about 4 inches low at about 135 yds. This is great for hunting hogs at night from a 25 yd bow stand at a feeder and plenty good for the ocassional coyote shot out to 125 yds or so.

 

[Billy Jack]

Well I settled on the 260 gr WFN on the Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. A few weeks back I had also worked up a 450 gr LFN for my Marlin 45-70.
This was their weekend to show me what they could do on deer and hogs.

I was hoping to see an 8 PT that had been on the game camera, but this guy came in and I decided to leave the 8 pt for my buddy who has yet to kill a nice buck. I just wanted some meat and I wanted to see how the 1894 and my new 260 gr WFN load would do.

The bullet went in low behind the front leg, took out the top of the heart, passed through the rib cage in a straignt line of fire from the chest entry hole, then somehow took a detour and exited the skin half way up the neck!

The best part of my story is that I also had a recently purchased Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun that also had never been fired in a hunting scenario. Later on in the evening after shooting the buck with the 1894 44 Mag, I went out night hunting and shot a big boar hog with the 45-70.

Then the next night I took the 1894 out again and got a nice sow that I butchered for the table.

I had 2 Marlin lever actions that I had just purchased and developped hand loads for that took 3 game animals in 2 days with 3 shots fired.

The WFN and LFN lead bullets really did a number on these animals. The 260 WFN in the 44 entered the right side of the head, passed lengthwise through the body, and broke the big leg bone on her left rear. It was late when I dressed her out and I just didn't take the time to look for an exit hole.

Now my favorite rifle of the 50 some odd years I've been hunting is my 1989 Vintage Marlin 1894S 44 mag.

Loads were as follows:
44 mag 260 gr LBT WFN-GC .432" with 20 gr of 2400.
45-70 450gr LBT LFN-GC .460" with 37 gr RL-7.