Rapid fragmentation v. controlled expansion

[nsf003]

I am talking about 223 remington. Which is a better fightstopper? A better hunting cartridge? Better all around? M193/M855 FMJ which fragments explosively or a Winchester SP which has a more controlled reliable expansion. Which would you trust more to put down a threat.

I hope this isn't considered a 9mm v 45 thread. Sorry if this has been done before.

nsf

 

[Ian]

Between the two, I think I'd take the softpoints. They'll expand at lower velocities than the FMJ will fragment at, which means a longer effective range. I don't know how ideal fragmentation compares to ideal expansion lethality-wise, though.

 

[ShaiVong]

Assuming your shooting goblins, a fragmenting .223 will cause much more massive damage than controled expansion. Caveat is that .223 will only fragment relyably above a certain FPS. 'Mushroom heads' i think expand over a greater variety of velocitys. All in all, gimme fragmentation.


Check out AR15 ammo FAQ, note the section about fragmentation

 

[444]

If I could pick between only those two, I would take the softpoints. But I would prefer something like a Hornady V-Max.

 

[Frohickey]

Depends on what you want afterwards.

If you are going for a dead squirrel, or a dead coyote, and you could care less about the carcass, then I would go for rapid fragmentation.

If you are going for small hogs, or deer, and you want meat, then I would go for controlled expansion.

 

[benEzra]

I choose fragmentation. The 'home defense load' in my mini-14 is Federal 40-gr JHP's, which IMO are as effective as any .223 in a frontal shot and almost guaranteed not to overpenetrate.

 

[makdaddy03]

Controlled Expansion.

 

[cratz2]

The magazine I keep loaded for the AR is loaded with 60 Gr Black Hills soft points. I think that should provide adequate penetration to allow for a head shot if the opportunity would present itself. While the VMax is explosive on crow and raccoon, I'm not sure if I would want to rely on it in .223 for a head shot or even a torso shot if encountering any bone. In 243 or 25-06, I'd have less hesitation.

Either way, the surface wounds would be hideous and very well might take your opponent out just from the pain. Nasty things, those VMax.

 

[Bostonterrier97]

40 grain Hornady VMAX's...wound channels are larger than with M193 Ammo

 

[444]

We often hear these studies that demand 12" of penetration or whatever. This is probably true depending on the circumstances. For the military, people are behind cover, they are wearing armor, they are wearing helmets, they are in armored vehicles, they are wearing rucksacks etc. As a civilian, odds are, if I had to use one of my .223s for self defense, it would be between 10'-20' or the distance between walls in my house. Again, odds are, the guy would not be wearing armor or other equipment, and I live in the desert so his clothing would be something like a T-Shirt. I would also imagine that if I had to defend myself, I would definitely be shooting more than once. I feel fairly certain that the V-Max would work like a charm. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think it would make a good military bullet; but for civilian self defense I think it would work well.
As far as hunting is concerned, I use the .223 for varmints. 99% of the time coyotes and jackrabbits. I can assure you that they are a great bullet for what I use them for.
Overpenetration isn't really an issue for me. I live by myself in a rural area. But, that being said, the V-Max would be very unlikely to overpenetrate.

 

[voilsb]

I'd go w/ rapid frag, for killing stuff. if I wanted to eat it, I'd use a different caliber.

 

[nsf003]

ShaiVong,

That site is where i got the inspiration to start this thread.

nsf

 

[rock jock]

ShaiVong,

That site is an incredible wealth of information.

 

[Zak Smith]

The ostensible goal is to cause immediate and/or rapid incapacitation of the target, be it assailent or animal.

To do this, first you need enough penetration. A bullet that is too lightly constructed for what its hitting, or is too lightly constructed for the high terminal velocity, will underpenetrate and fail to cause effective damage. For example, a very fast but lightly constructed "varmint" bullet probably will not penetrate an elk's (or maybe even a deer's) shoulder bone area. Bad.

Second, given enough penetration, you want to cause a lot of damage, viz. "make a big hole."

Furthermore, you want these effects to occur reliably within the possible terminal mediums (e.g. flesh vs. bone) and terminal velocities (e.g. a 400 yard shot will have much less terminal velocity than a 25 yard shot).

So first of all, don't pick a bullet that will not penetrate enough because it's too light or too lightly constructed. It just won't get the job done. The FBI has a minimum penetration depth of something like 12".

Second of all, make sure if you are depending on some expansion or fragmentation, that it will reliably occur in the range of possible terminal velocities. With M193 or M855 out of a 16" AR-15, this may limit you to no more than about 200 yards for a terminal velocity of at least 2500 fps. If you go with the heavier 75-77gr bullets, you might get another 50-100 yards.

-z

 

[BHP9]

In my experiece for varmint type small animals the standard old fashion last turn of the century disintegrating bullet works best.

For larger game like Deer the controlled expansion bullet is much better. Bigger body targets demand deeper penetration.

I read a write up in Shotgun news a few months ago that discussed the various military bullets used in the past in the M16 and what is being used know. It stated that the original military 55 grain bullet was much more deadly because of the tumbling and even sometimes the disintegration of these rounds. The newer and heavier bullet with its penetrator does penetrate and shoot more accurately at longer ranges but has a much poorer record of spectatcular stops that was previously found with the earlier military loading of the lighter weight bullet.

It was felt that the Russian .220 round was superior in stopping power to both the early and late miltitary U.S. 5.56 military rounds.

 

[Mannlicher]

I choose 'other'.

The reason is that I am not interested in fragmentation at all. I am not hunting elk or moose, or Cape Buffalo, so I do not need the 'controlled expansion'

My hunting is for deer or hogs, and a round like the Remington Core-lokt usually works fine.

My favorite deer cartridge is the .44 Mag Speer 270 Grain Gold Dot Soft Point. Not a lot of expansion but a huge hole, and deadly performance.

 

[zahc]

Fragmenting bullets like Vmax or Ballistic tip in .223 or speer Tnt's in 6mm rem really do the job on grondhogs .243 ballistic tips seem to penetrate more before expanding, I think they are great for deer, but they penetrate a tad too much on groundhogs so I like TNT's better in my 6mm. Fragmenting/exploding bullets are all I use for groundhogs because of less riccochetage.