Re: "Correct" with respect to milsurps

[CLP]

I'm okay with your rack/service grade CMP special Garands- I like shooting anything I own. That being said, I've been looking at possibly acquiring a Garand or other milsurp for it's collector value as well- probably not to shoot often though. This can be pretty intimidating for someone who doesn't have much background knowledge of the history of these firearms. There's a lot to know about the stamps on the stocks, receivers, and barrels- not to mention many of the other parts. Typically, anything advertised as "correct" commands a premium. To me, this word means that all the components- bolts, trigger housing and components, sights, etc, are all from the same manufacturer. But what's to prevent me from knowing if a rifle is all correct from the factory as opposed to an individual taking a receiver, barrel, etc and all the stamped parts and assembling a "correct" rifle? Or does the definition of "correct" in this context even imply that such a rifle is in it's state from the factory. Sure, the assembler would need to ensure that the right sight knobs and other parts that evolve over time are period-correct as well, but is there any way to distinguish that from a factory original? To me, and this is just my opinion, but an armory-built mixmaster has more historical value than a pseudo-correct rifle assembled by someone from differently sourced components. Don't get me wrong, I think the pseudo-correct rifle can be nice- but is it any more historically significant than the aforementioned mixmaster? I know the individual components on some milsurps, but not all, are serialized which alleviates this concern. I know in sourcing all the individual components a person would want to ensure there was even wear among them all. The main thing is I don't want to overpay for something I think has more value than it actually does. I don't mind overpaying for something I want. Any advice for buying 1903's, Garands, and 1917's being labelled as "all correct"?

 

[ku4hx]

Unless an item of "historical" value is accompanied by some sort of documentation issued by a reputable historical society or firm of some sort, it's all a roll of the dice. Anybody can make any claim any time they want about any sort of authenticity. But unless some recognized authority attests to the authenticity, it's all just hearsay. And even letters of authenticity that can be faked.

A secondary problem is misinformation. I've seen many a gun over my lifetime I know was not what it was represented to be. No fraud necessarily involved, just simple misinformation.

It all comes down to who do you trust, what lengths are you willing to go to in order to satisfy your needs and how much are you willing to pay for certain assurances.

 

[Partizanai]

So many mixed parts...

I have found that many have varying degrees of mixed parts (non
matching numbers..) I have found this to be true on govt issued .45's
and many M1 carbines as well.
In my opinion- correct should include but, not be limited to the following
quality's. All matching numbered parts, not refinished or "touched-up",
no new/replaced components and any added researchable history would
be a great plus.
P

 

[Jim Watson]

Which matching numbered parts are those, Par?
There was a span of time from the adoption of the 1911A1 until early WWII when Colt slides were numbered to the receiver. Otherwise the frame is the only serialized part. You must know the fine details to determine originality or correctness. And the 1911 gurus are very hip on "wear patterns" and claim to be able to tell if a period part has been scrounged and installed to make a pistol "correct" or that a gun with replacement part(s) has "been together a long time."
You will pay big money for an original 1911 or 1911A1 and there are getting to be more and more fakes and misrepresentations as prices climb.

The Garand is the home of the "correct rifle." They aren't serialized all over, either, but the major parts are identified by drawing number and manufacturer. It is possible to swap parts and assemble a "correct" M1 with all parts of the same make and period. I know a guy who, when CMP limited purchases to five rifles, signed up his whole family and they bought 25 guns. He swapped parts, bought some, and was able to assemble several "correct" rifles which he sold for a large profit. The remaining mixed rifles went to shooters or uncritical "collectors" still resold for more than he paid as the supply dried up.

Bolt action 1903s and 1917s are easier. Lots of 1903s around with WWII barrels, lots of Parkerized 1917s refurbed and put in reserve or sent off to England where they still didn't like them. The differences are fairly obvious. My Mk I has the right barrel date, probably original, the type T stock is right and probably original... but it has a stamped magazine follower which is definitely not original.

M1 Carbines were so comprehensively brought up to end of WWII standard that to find one in early configuration is very unusual. I don't know if there has been much work done to reconvert them the way Garands are.

 

[Jim K]

The M1 rifle was in service from c. 1937 to c. 1957. That period included a world war and several "small" wars. Almost all of those rifles were rebuilt, some several times. The only ones that remained original were either stolen early on, were sent to England and remained in depots throughout the war, or were in museums. All in service were upgraded as improvements were made; new parts were installed and the old parts tossed in the trash. Most of those that saw combat were rebuilt, with parts replaced or refinished as needed.

When someone offers me an "all original" M1 rifle, and has no explanation as to "where it has been", I know that it is a civilian "selective rebuild" (as Jim Watson says) and the seller is simply trying to hype a gun he likely put together himself.

Jim

 

[Partizanai]

Mixed Bag...

Jim Watson--
Actually a number of parts. I have a 1911 that has a "Springfield
Armory" slide and everything else is 100% "Colt". I have found this
time and time again. I believe that during/after the war, Armorers
mis-matched these components.
P

 

[Jim Watson]

Even the CMP will sell "Correct Grade" M1 ifles with matching make and time parts.
They also have "Collector Grade" rifles with original parts.
But they are going to cost you; they auction them when they turn up.

 

[Jim Watson]

Partizanai,

The 1911 gurus can identify most parts by make and era. I don't doubt you have a SA slide on an otherwise Colt gun due to any of several mechanisms.
But if yours is "matching numbered" I would sure like to see pictures.

 

[Partizanai]

1913 Colt

It is a 1913 Colt that was delivered to then Fort Ethan Allen. Everything
is Colt- with the exception of the slide. I don't require the gurus as I have
the pistol. It's been a shooter for the last 35 years that I have owned it..
Thanks-
P

 

[DeepSouth]

Even the CMP will sell "Correct Grade" M1 ifles with matching make and time parts.
They also have "Collector Grade" rifles with original parts.
But they are going to cost you; they auction them when they turn up.

That's exactly what I was thinking, the quickest, safest, and easiest way. Assuming they have some available, I haven't looked in several years.

That's definitely what I'd do, your in AL drive to the Anniston store and you'll get more education than you will here, even if you don't buy a rifle.

 

[The Alaskan]

The M1 rifle was in service from c. 1937 to c. 1957. That period included a world war and several "small" wars. Almost all of those rifles were rebuilt, some several times. The only ones that remained original were either stolen early on, were sent to England and remained in depots throughout the war, or were in museums. All in service were upgraded as improvements were made; new parts were installed and the old parts tossed in the trash. Most of those that saw combat were rebuilt, with parts replaced or refinished as needed.

When someone offers me an "all original" M1 rifle, and has no explanation as to "where it has been", I know that it is a civilian "selective rebuild" (as Jim Watson says) and the seller is simply trying to hype a gun he likely put together himself.

Jim

Right on Jim. You beat me to it. Ther is probably no such thing as an "all orginal" "matching parts" "correct" M1 Garand.

Think about it. They changed the gas trap system early on and upgraded almost every Garand with the new system. Good luck finding one with the old system.

Also think about 8-10 guys sitting around a barracks floor in 1942 disassembling and reassembling Garands. One guy accidentally grabs another guy's op rod. Oops, no longer original.

My Garand was built in Feb, 1945. Barrel was built in May 1956. Boht are SA, but not "original." How could it be? Think about the thousands of rounds (AP even) sent down range. Or worse, a gun that was used for Basic Training and all the rounds fired in practice?

I'm with Jim. Anytime someone says "matching numbers M1 Garand" I walk away.

Edit: PS: About as close as you can get is "period correct" in that the rifle parts are "correct" for the period or the era which you are trying to portray. For example web sling in the Pacific, leather in Europe, or a cut down 1902 bayonet for early WWII, an uncut 10" bayonet for late war or Korea. (Or an M5 for post Korean war.)

 

[Jim K]

The same was true of pistols. The rebuild instructions say, in effect, "throw slide in pile A, throw frame in pile B". The parts were stripped and everything was examined to be serviceable. Parts that were serviceable were assembled into pistols to be shipped to the troops; parts that were unserviceable were tossed out. There was no effort made to keep model integrity - M1911 and M1911A1 parts were mixed together. And there was certainly no effort to please unborn collectors by keeping orignal parts together.

So a pistol (M1911 or M1911A1) that is mismatched could have gotten that way in the service, or last week, and there is no way of knowing from the gun itself.

Jim