Really high velocity 9mm

[NuJudge]

I recently found mention of ammunition from Buffalo Bore using 147gr bullets with a muzzle velocity of 1175fps:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=26

Then I found Vihtavouri published data for their powder 3N38 in 2007 that says one can achieve 1207 fps with the 147gr XTP:
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Handgun-Reloading-Data-2006.pdf

I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this. Has anybody used ammo loaded to these specs? Blast/flash/wear characteristics are also of interest to me.

CDD

 

[Walkalong]

Flash and Blast? VV powders are generally low flash.

Wear? It's still only 6.9 Grs of powder. Not much more than many 9MM loadings.

That is a lot of velocity for a 147 Gr jacketed bullet in 9MM. It would be interesting to see if you could match using 3N38 it in the real world.

 

[Dannix]

At first I thought it may be the barrel length, but apparently they used a 4"er.

I would be very interested in what a chrono would show in actual implementation.

 

[rcmodel]

According to the laws of physics, nothing comes free.
Equal & opposite reaction and all that.

If you get 100-200 FPS more velocity and 140 ft/lb more energy out of any bullet weight then a normal load, the slide and frame will get beat harder.

rc

 

[Galil5.56]

Seen this load before, and have said until I see multiple actual chronograph numbers from that load across several platforms from an accurate chronograph, I say no way with that much propellant considering its rated pressure curve.

*IF* this 1207 fps is gotten from their 4" test barrel, they have some pretty slick explaining to do considering their other data was a max of 6.2 grains @1096 fps.

 

[Dannix]

I wonder if this is a case of a rare typo in either speed or barrel length.

 

[Steve C]

The only caveat for any maximum handload data is to work up to it. Use a chrono to see if the velocity is close to the predicted in the data as differences in guns makes a difference in actual velocity.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I found when loading the .38 Super to duplicate the Cor-Bon 125gr load, I had to use the same bullet. They used a Sierra 125JHP, and it was a shorter bullet than most, so that pressure was kept close to the CorBon load. When I considered some other 125 bullets I like, they required seating deeper to make acceptable OAL. This would also apply to the 147gr loads for the 9mm. You have just so much case capacity, and possible OAL, that a certain bullet might be optimum for giving the greatest case capacity (in order to keep pressure acceptable). I can't tell you which 147 would be the best, but it woud seem that soft points would be shorter than hollow points, and some hollow point bullets might be designed to be shorter (I think the Remington Golden Sabres mght be LONGER due to their design, for instance). Just food for thought, when choosing bullets, and trying to give yourself the best options for max loads.

 

[helg]

QuickLoad calculates 6.9 grains of VV 3N38 under 147gr Hornady XTP with OAL 1.169" (max for the caliber) as 38257psi (109% SAAMI max or 99.4% SAAMI +P max) and 1091 fps in 4" barrel. In order to reach 1200 fps with this charge, the OAL has to be shortened to 1.119", and this give the max pressure of 64K psi, which is well above all the limits.

No way to push this heavy one that fast.

 

[1SOW]

Vit loading shows the Hornady 147 HP/XTP over 6.9 HN38 @ 1.142 coal at 1207 as the max.

HN38 is listed as 'relatively' slow burning. Their chart doesn't show case pressure.

New recoil spring needed for sure.

I'd bet my 4.72" bbl CZ won't chamber at that length.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I've loaded 147gr jhp 9mm and that's a hot number for sure. be interesting to shoot it my Marlin Camp 9 though.

 

[Dave P]

You can get that velocity easily with a 357SIG. 9 gr of 800x puts the 147 out at 1300 fps. Just in case you were wondering what the 357SIG is good for!

 

[rfwobbly]

I'd say compare that to the newer books Vit has on-line. Got to be a typo.

 

[LightningMan]

This data may be very specific in it's componets, similar to the data I have for the .380 auto that came with my .380 Lee reloading die set. There is general data for 90 grain jacketed bullets with the top loading being 980 fps using BlueDot but also lists seperate data for the 90 gr. Hornady XTP bullet. The top load for it uses PowerPistol which achieves 1105 fps. Thats 125 fps faster, go figure? LM.

 

[evan price]

Good grief, that's a 9mm Major load. I would not want to get ANY setback and touch one off. Ka-boomie!

 

[MAXM]

VV speed handgun data are obtained with a pressure gun and are usually a lot higher than "real" speed.
VV 3N38 is in my experience an excellent powder for 9 mm hi-speed, altough it works at best with barrel no shorter than 5", and the longer is the better.

 

[Mags]

Just checked Vhit's reloading data webpage it doesn't list specific components for that load and the start load produces about 1171 fps according to their data.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The load data provided by Vihtavouri conforms to C.I.P. standards, (Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing) not SAAMI standard. European CIP pressures are higher than American pressures so that might explain the higher velocities in their data than we are used to seeing.

For example, current SAAMI pressure limits for the .38 Special are 17,000 psi. The limits for the .38 Special +P are 18,500 psi. CIP doesn't have +P listings, they have only 1 limit for a caliber. The current pressure limits for the .38 Special are 21,750 psi according to CIP. There was a time before all the super light .38 Special revolvers came about the SAAMI .38 Special +P pressure limits were 20,000 psi. I'm not sure what the CIP limits for the 9mm are but you can bet they are similarly higher than SAAMI limits.

 

[MAXM]

CIP 9x19 and 9x21 maximum mean pressure is 2.350 bar (around 34.084 psi) with piezo sensor.
There is no "+P" pressure with CIP rules.

 

[Galil5.56]

VV speed handgun data are obtained with a pressure gun and are usually a lot higher than "real" speed.
VV 3N38 is in my experience an excellent powder for 9 mm hi-speed, altough it works at best with barrel no shorter than 5", and the longer is the better.

Hi MAXM,

I remember discussing this load with you on another board, and we both came to the same optomistic/ottimistiche conclusion about VV data in this and other applications... Especially so after the good workout you gave the 9x21 in your "tacarmi" magazine article that included numerous pressure-to-velocity graphs.

Well done!

 

[MAXM]

Thanks, Galil5.56 , for your kind words.

I prize really high, too, your writings in this and other Forums.

Bests,
Maxm

 

[1SOW]

That 1207fps "max" load IS on the webpage, near the bottom, under 147gr rn.

 

[Afy]

The VV manuals are a little strange. For example the Max load ofr a 123 grain 7.62x39 load is 27 grains of VV N120in the speer manual. While in the VV manual the min load is 27.2 grains of VV N-120.
Simmillarly with the 9mm loads, they do work fine, cant speak about velocity, but you do get good clean ammo.
Always start low and work up. If your gun can handle it and you're happy go for it. Velocity is not the end all, imho