Red-Dot Pistol Sights

[thomas15]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only person on the planet (who's bi-focal dependent eyes) glaze over when they see in print or hear via voice communication the need or even desirability to co-witness electronic and iron sights on a handgun?

 

[rpenmanparker]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only person on the planet (who's bi-focal dependent eyes) glaze over when they see in print or hear via voice communication the need or even desirability to co-witness electronic and iron sights on a handgun?

I advocate for it only as an aid to rapidly finding the dot. Not necessary, but possibly helpful. Otherwise I couldn’t care less.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only person on the planet (who's bi-focal dependent eyes) glaze over when they see in print or hear via voice communication the need or even desirability to co-witness electronic and iron sights on a handgun?

While it is certainly possible to fire at a target and adjust the dot to strike to the same POA, I'd think it would be easier to just co-witness your open sights and the dot before confirming at the range.

It might be partially dependent on the distance you want to zero your gun. I normally zero at 25 yards and confirm at 50 yards

 

[psyopspec]

Self-deleted.

 

[rpenmanparker]

While it is certainly possible to fire at a target and adjust the dot to strike to the same POA, I'd think it would be easier to just co-witness your open sights and the dot before confirming at the range.

It might be partially dependent on the distance you want to zero your gun. I normally zero at 25 yards and confirm at 50 yards

I zero the red dot at the range according to standard procedure. I consider the pistol to be a close up weapon and zero at 15 yards. Most of my shooting is at 7 yards so I aim about 1/2 inch high at that distance. My groups are very well centered.

 

[tarosean]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only person on the planet (who's bi-focal dependent eyes) glaze over when they see in print or hear via voice communication the need or even desirability to co-witness electronic and iron sights on a handgun?

I wear bifocals and have a Astigmatism. I prefer the smallest dots possible to reduce the fragmentation of the dot. All my guns that have RDS I do not co-witness..(including rifles)

 

[rpenmanparker]

I wear bifocals and have a Astigmatism. I prefer the smallest dots possible to reduce the fragmentation of the dot. All my guns that have RDS I do not co-witness..(including rifles)

View attachment 808983

I know what you mean about the fragmentation of the dot. It is very annoying. I set the dot brightness for the lowest level that I can see. That also makes the apparent dot size smaller and allows better accuracy. I’m waiting for the Rx insert to come in for my new Wiley X Saber Advanced shooting glasses. I’m hoping they will work really well with the red dots.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I consider the pistol to be a close up weapon

I do too, but I also consider my surroundings and possible circumstances of use. The distance from the center of my family room to the front door is 20+ yards; from my wing fencing (where I'd be taking out my garbage can) to the street is 30 yards...that is why I zero at 25 yards.

Most of my practice is at 20+ yards...working on the theory that if I can hit (4") at speed at that distance, anything closer should be easy...and faster

 

[rpenmanparker]

I do too, but I also consider my surroundings and possible circumstances of use. The distance from the center of my family room to the front door is 20+ yards; from my wing fencing (where I'd be taking out my garbage can) to the street is 30 yards...that is why I zero at 25 yards.

Most of my practice is at 20+ yards...working on the theory that if I can hit (4") at speed at that distance, anything closer should be easy...and faster

Certainly. Your rationale makes perfect sense.

I would caution you, however that it is more difficult to demonstrate a threat to your person at more than 7 yards in order to justify deadly force. But of course the good news is that we are talking about drop differences of fractions of an inch over the shot ranges being discussed. We should both be okay with our own particular protocols...or even with each other’s.

 

[BigSteve57]

The trick is to build muscle memory through repitition of bringing the gun from the ready position to the fire position. If you bring the gun up the same way every time, the dot will be in the same place every time. All that is needed is to make that dot position the center of the screen by careful development of the motion. Then practice, practice, practice. Once you have the motion mastered, the dot will always be where you want it. You can’t raise the gun any which way and expect to be able to hunt down the dot afterwards.

Thanks for the advice. I've gotten better at this. I started out getting the dot lined up 1/5 times to now about 4/5 times. But I think I'm cheating at least some of the time. I think I am actually looking for the front sight and where the rear irons used to be.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Thanks for the advice. I've gotten better at this. I started out getting the dot lined up 1/5 times to now about 4/5 times. But I think I'm cheating at least some of the time. I think I am actually looking for the front sight and where the rear irons used to be.

What’s wrong with that if it works? Heck, lot of folks think red dots themselves are cheating. If that’s true, I guess I’m just a cheater. This is serious business, and we owe it to ourselves to do the best job we can.

 

[BigSteve57]

What’s wrong with that if it works? Heck, lot of folks think red dots themselves are cheating. If that’s true, I guess I’m just a cheater. This is serious business, and we owe it to ourselves to do the best job we can.

As for a red dot I have no choice. I just can't see the irons without special prescription shooting glasses. I also have a laser on the gun.

Maybe cheating was a poor choice of words. But...the advice of the experts all seem to echo yours. So if I'm not doing that (or think I'm not) then my reasoning says I'm doing it wrong. And if I'm "doing it wrong" with a firearm that's slated to be a defensive forearm it causes me to worry that the approach will fail when I need it most. In other words, if I'm not doing what those that know what they're doing say to do then I'm on my own and I'm probably on a fool's errand.

Where I can see this failing is at night when I wouldn't be able to see the rear of the gun very well.

Know what? I think I'm going to dry fire practice for about the next 30 minutes.

 

[rpenmanparker]

As for a red dot I have no choice. I just can't see the irons without special prescription shooting glasses. I also have a laser on the gun.

Maybe cheating was a poor choice of words. But...the advice of the experts all seem to echo yours. So if I'm not doing that (or think I'm not) then my reasoning says I'm doing it wrong. And if I'm "doing it wrong" with a firearm that's slated to be a defensive forearm it causes me to worry that the approach will fail when I need it most. In other words, if I'm not doing what those that know what they're doing say to do then I'm on my own and I'm probably on a fool's errand.

Where I can see this failing is at night when I wouldn't be able to see the rear of the gun very well.

Know what? I think I'm going to dry fire practice for about the next 30 minutes.

Well said. You could paint a fine line down underneath the center of the red dot using phosphorescent paint. Some red dots do have a center line along the back edge, but I don’t think it glows.

 

[BigSteve57]

Well said. You could paint a fine line down underneath the center of the red dot using phosphorescent paint. Some red dots do have a center line along the back edge, but I don’t think it glows.

That's an interesting idea; didn't think of that.

 

[Capt.Roll]

As for a red dot I have no choice. I just can't see the irons without special prescription shooting glasses. I also have a laser on the gun.

Maybe cheating was a poor choice of words. But...the advice of the experts all seem to echo yours. So if I'm not doing that (or think I'm not) then my reasoning says I'm doing it wrong. And if I'm "doing it wrong" with a firearm that's slated to be a defensive forearm it causes me to worry that the approach will fail when I need it most. In other words, if I'm not doing what those that know what they're doing say to do then I'm on my own and I'm probably on a fool's errand.

Where I can see this failing is at night when I wouldn't be able to see the rear of the gun very well.

Know what? I think I'm going to dry fire practice for about the next 30 minutes.

Ha! 30 minutes isn't enough. 10,000 presentations and you'll have your subconscious programmed (no such thing as muscle memory) to a reflex so the body/arms/hands deliver the pistol orientation and red dot alignment on target every time.

I'm on about 2500 (1500 live fire; 1000 dry fire) and slowly getting better. However under some time pressure (like an IDPA match) I still sometimes have to search for the dot because my presentation is rushed. I also have iron sights on my pistol but they are of little help when I'm wearing contacts/glasses that correct my distance vision. The iron sights are just a blur.

 

[Nuclear]

If you go to any competitive shooting match, there is one, maybe two categories where you can only use iron sights, every other category allows red dot sights, because it is so much faster and easier to get hits on target. It doesn't take thousands of presentations to ingrain the proper draw, it may not take hundreds, even. A co-witness of the red dot with the irons help shorten this learning curve, but aren't necessary unless you are paranoid about the red dot sight failing.

Red dot sights are here to stay.

 

[Old Dog]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only person on the planet (who's bi-focal dependent eyes) glaze over when they see in print or hear via voice communication the need or even desirability to co-witness electronic and iron sights on a handgun?

You're not.

Frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would ever see the need to co-witness a red-dot with the iron sights on a pistol.

 

[thomas15]

Frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would ever see the need to co-witness a red-dot with the iron sights on a pistol.

This year concludes the 2nd year shooting with a red dot, the 4th year that I haven been shooting static steel, the 5th year of handgun competition. Early last season, during the second or third match of the year where I was shooting with my dot, a guy approached me as asked about my rig. I explained that I had a C-MORE RTS2 mounted on an Allchin mount, this I selected for the reasons mentioned in this thread, to put the actual dot as close to the bore as possible.

This gentlemen informed me that the way I had it configured that I would not be able to "co-witness" with iron sights. I had been a 3 full years of competition and not heard the term "co-witness" before and I had another identical handgun configured with iron sights to use when the cof called for irons.

Since that day 18 months ago, when I was "co-witness" educated by this guy (who told me flat out that he was a beginner), I have shot roughly 17,000 rounds thru my dot sighted gun and 5000 rounds thru my iron sighted gun and have yet to find myself in a situation that demanded that I "co-witness" anything. So that is my story.

 

[rpenmanparker]

This year concludes the 2nd year shooting with a red dot, the 4th year that I haven been shooting static steel, the 5th year of handgun competition. Early last season, during the second or third match of the year where I was shooting with my dot, a guy approached me as asked about my rig. I explained that I had a C-MORE RTS2 mounted on an Allchin mount, this I selected for the reasons mentioned in this thread, to put the actual dot as close to the bore as possible.

This gentlemen informed me that the way I had it configured that I would not be able to "co-witness" with iron sights. I had been a 3 full years of competition and not heard the term "co-witness" before and I had another identical handgun configured with iron sights to use when the cof called for irons.

Since that day 18 months ago, when I was "co-witness" educated by this guy (who told me flat out that he was a beginner), I have shot roughly 17,000 rounds thru my dot sighted gun and 5000 rounds thru my iron sighted gun and have yet to find myself in a situation that demanded that I "co-witness" anything. So that is my story.

Co-witnessing is generally considered helpful in combat situations, usually with assault rifles.

 

[thomas15]

Co-witnessing is generally considered helpful in combat situations, usually with assault rifles.

You made me nervous until I double checked the title of the OP:

Red-Dot Pistol Sights

Then I looked at the title of this sub-forum:

Handguns: Accessories, Holsters, and Optics

 

[thomas15]

A co-witness of the red dot with the irons help shorten this learning curve, but aren't necessary unless you are paranoid about the red dot sight failing.

I don't want to disagree with everything you state in your post because in my experience most of it is accurate. Trying to not be a person who constantly argues. But the above is not my experience.

My experience... I have two identical firearms. Firearm #1 is my open gun, it has a dot sight. Firearm #2 is my Limited gun, it has iron sights. Sometimes, I will shoot both of them in the same match, usually I shoot irons first then open. This might seem strange to someone that shoots IDPA or USPSA but in Steel Challenge it happens all the time.

Although both guns are the same make and model, I have noticed that I need separate sets of "muscle memory" to get a quick sight picture depending on the gun. I use a good portion of my 2 minutes of LAMR time to get this under control. This is actually one of the themes of this thread, is it a good practice to mount a dot close to the bore or high with respect to the bore? If an individual co-witnesses then the close to the bore option is lost.

I think realistically it takes a few weeks to several months for the individual that makes the switch to a dot sight from irons to master the learning curve. It is really the same as with iron sights, to really master a quick and repeatable sight picture doesn't happen in 5 minutes due to genetic pre-disposition.

As a side note, one of my firearms has a Burris FF3 mounted on a pic rail and I left the front sight on. The FF3 has the previously mentioned white hash mark on the sight body which in theory should aid in the learning curve by acting as a co-witness rear sight. It isn't even close to putting the dot on target and will only make learning to find the dot more difficult than it already is. Even the pros once in a while struggle with finding the dot. But constant and persistent practice makes not finding the dot much more rare to even we the pikers.