Red Dot Powder -- What has Changed

[Thomas Traddles]

Hello, I ran across data for Red Dot Powder from a 1973 Hornady Reloading Manual. Here are the loads for a 158 grn LRN for 38 Special and their corresponding velocities.

3.5grs = 750fps
3.8grs = 800fps
4.2grs = 850fps
4.5grs = 900fps
4.9grs = 950fps
5.3grs = 1000fps
5.6grs = 1050fps MAX LOAD

Compare this to the Loads in the Most Recent Lyman Manual (49th) for 158 grn bullets for 38 special:

Nothing -- there is no data for a 158 grn bullet in this caliber.

The closest Red Dot Loads for 38 special are for a 150 gr DEWC and start at 2.8 grains with a velocity of 839fps and end with a max load of 3.2 grains at 917fps.

Is the Red Dot powder of today different than the Red Dot of yesteryear? I don't think so. Why the discrepancy?

 

[rcmodel]

Because in 1974, SAAMI introduced the +P cartridge designation, and all standard pressure reloading data was revised downward to meet the new pressure standards for standard pressure ammo.

Red Dot has never changed throughout history.

rc

 

[Thomas Traddles]

Thanks for the reply, RC.

I'm trying to understand also the relationship between the different velocities for the different loads. Would it really be the case that a bullet weighing eight grains less than the 158 travel at nearly 100 fps on a .7 grain less charge (from 3.5 to 2.8)? It seems to me that the changing of the pressure data by SAMMI accounts for reduced loads, but I am trying to wrap my head around the increased velocity. Where would I go to educate myself on such things?

T

 

[rcmodel]

Look at the two manuals and see what test guns were used in each.

Lyman uses a Pressure test barrel with no barrel / cylinder gap gas loss.

I'd kinda think Hornady might have been using a real revolver test gun in 1974?

rc

 

[Thomas Traddles]

I will have to hunt down the Hornady Manual from the Library again to see. But the venting of a shot fired through a revolver would make sense of the reduced velocities. Thanks.

T

 

[oneounceload]

What has changed? 41 years of development and materials, maybe?

Look at Alliant's site for data

 

[rooster59]

Are you sure you read and copied that right?

A 1980 Hornady and a 1974 Speer manual I have list 3.9 grains red dot as max in a 38 special with a 158 grain lead bullet. But that's for historical reference, don't use that. Alliant's web site currently lists max as 3.4 grains red dot, or 60% of the load you listed. And never take someones word over the internet, look it up for yourself.

Old loads were worked up with test equipment that wasn't as sensitive as piezo equipment of today. The crusher methods tended to average out the pressure spike relative to modern electronic sensors/amplifiers.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog/alliantpowder-reloadersguide/2014_Alliant_Powder_Catalog.pdf

I think a nice model 15 would be in pieces with that old load.

 

[41 Mag]

The closest Red Dot Loads for 38 special are for a 150 gr DEWC

I'm trying to understand also the relationship between the different velocities for the different loads. Would it really be the case that a bullet weighing eight grains less than the 158 travel at nearly 100 fps on a .7 grain less charge (from 3.5 to 2.8)?

Just something to ponder here, but read the above once again and think about this, those DEWC's are usually seated down quite a bit further in the cases and either crimp right below the top lip of the bullet or right over it. So you would in effect probably have a bit less case capacity left, than with the 158 which will have 1/4" or slightly more, and at least 6-10 grains of lead sticking out above the crimp.

Less case capacity less powder required for equal or more velocity.

 

[Kernel]

Forty-one year old Cognac can be exquisite. Forty-one year old handload recipes, not so much. Use some more modern load data. Old reloading manuals make great references, I've got half a dozen, but it's best to check them vs. some 21st century published loads. Handloading went thru a sea-change in the 90's with the use of quartz load-cell technology combined with computer data acquisition.

 

[Lj1941]

Red dot

I use a batch (4 lbs) of Red Dot for a multitude of different calibers and loads.Most of my use has been with hard cast. I use modern data from Alliant's lastest book of recipes.My standard 38 Spl 158 grain hard cast is 3.4 grains of RD.I have loaded SWCs,RN, or RNFP with the same load. I don't know the age of the RD but it was made by Hercules.I have loaded a few 38+ P loads with 3.8 grains of RD.I have used a lot with 45 ACP & 200 Grn SWCs again with up to date data. I find it to be a very good powder for everything I have tryed.Ymmv.

 

[Schwing]

Handloading went thru a sea-change in the 90's with the use of quartz load-cell technology combined with computer data acquisition.

It also went through the Lawyer phase as well. Since the lawyers started helping out most all of the changes I have noticed have to do with maximum load data being reduced.

 

[LiveLife]

I use a lot of Red Dot/Promo and reference 2004 Alliant load data for FMJ/lead loads that current Alliant load data don't have loads for - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

Here's 2004 Alliant load data for 38 Spl and 38 Spl +P, including 158 gr load.

 

[Salmoneye]

Not sure where the data in the OP comes from, but that last load of 5.6gr of Red Dot exceeds the 2004 Alliant and 1992 Hercules max for the .357 Magnum with 158gr cast...

 

[FROGO207]

I vote for lawyer interference/better testing methods. Also the price.

 

[Poper]

What has changed? 41 years of development and materials, maybe?

Testing mechanisms have changed, too.

 

[wally]

Handloading went thru a sea-change in the 90's with the use of quartz load-cell technology combined with computer data acquisition.

Yeah but, we weren't blowing up guns in the 70's & 80's with these loads from the old manuals.

Thank the technology as mentioned, and the bottom feeding product liability lawyers.