Review of United 93 movie written by Todd Beamer's father.....

[hillbilly]

Ezekiel wrote:

"We should just admit that we are the declining Holy Roman empire, that el Presidente Jorge Shrub is Charlemagne, and go kick some barbarian ass. It's our best option."

This is one of the most sensible comments I've heard on this situation.

Of course, "kicking barbarian ass" just would never fly.

Heck, we can't even call "Islamic Terrorists" barbarians, or even by the appropriate label of "Islamic" terrorists.

Remember, "Islam" means "peace" even though it's literal translation really means "submission."

That's what I find so maddening in this situation. We suffered the single worst mass-casualty attack on US soil since Robert E. Lee's last invasion of the North in 1863, killing even more Americans on American soil than the attack on Pearl Harbor.

But only five years later, most of the country is completely asleep to the fact that significant number of radical Muslims really do want us all dead.

Another sizeable chunk of the country thinks that radical Muslims are not a problem, but that Bushco is our worst enemy.

Some of the second group even believe that radical Muslims don't really exist, and are nothing more than a Reichstag Fire Show put on by Bushco.

I think the Patriot Act, et al, is draconian and onerous.

I think the Bush administration has bungled some things. But even Abraham Lincoln himself bungled picking the leadership of the Army of the Potomac over and over and over.

But I think lots of Americans just don't "get it" when it comes to this war.

And I'm afraid that it'll take another 9/11, only this time with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of US casualties for lots of folks to finally "get it."

And when that day does come, it might prove absolutely fatal for whatever freedom we currently have left. It'll wake everyone up finally, but it might just be too late by then.

hillbilly

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Every society and every generation needs its myths and mythic heroes.

It's how the demagogues generate and use those myths that is the problem.

 

[Cosmoline]

Personally I can't even watch the previews of this thing. It's too fresh.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

But I think lots of Americans just don't "get it" when it comes to this war.

And I'm afraid that it'll take another 9/11, only this time with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of US casualties for lots of folks to finally "get it."

Can you explain to me how "kicking barbarian butt" is a solution to this problem? I know it sounds good, but simplistic answers usually do. They just don't often do any good.

 

[Smurfslayer]

another simplistic view

3 "Saturday Night Specials" could've changed history from a tragedy costing ~3 thousand lives to

Several terrorists shot on planes in coordinated effort to hijack flights...

Gun free zones killed every victim in the 9/11 tragedy.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Personally I can’t even watch the previews of this thing. It’s too fresh.

I don’t know if I’ll ever watch it. Why would I want to feel that way again?

~G. Fink

 

[Tokugawa]

George Bush has great restraint.I think most Americans on Sept 12 would have voted in favor of turning Tehran, Bagdad and Damascus into a smoking radioactive hole. Not to mention Mecca and Medina and Riyadh. The thoughts in my head were "what would Sherman do?" "what would LeMay do?" "what would Tokugawa Ieasu do?" I actually got positive response at a party by suggesting we hunt down and eliminate the bloodline of every hijacking murderous sod. ( the Tokugawa method)

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Dubya is the Abraham Lincoln of the 21st century.

Not meant as a compliment.

 

[seeker_two]

The thoughts in my head were "what would Sherman do?" "what would LeMay do?" "what would Tokugawa Ieasu do?" I actually got positive response at a party by suggesting we hunt down and eliminate the bloodline of every hijacking murderous sod. ( the Tokugawa method)

I nominate Tokugawa for the position of Supreme Military Commander for all War On Terror Operations....

Dubya is the Abraham Lincoln of the 21st century.

Not meant as a compliment.

...and cropcirclewalker as Chief Teacher of National History...

 

[sacp81170a]

Tokugawa:

"what would LeMay do?"

You da man! I think LeMay would probably put a couple B-2's in orbit over Mecca and demand the surrender of known members of every Islamic terror group. Black Jack Pershing would then have them executed with bullets dipped in pig's blood, the way he did with the Moros during the Filipine Insurrection.

 

[Diamondback6]

Beggin' yer pardon, SACP. I might be just the newb here, but I AM a military history major, and ya might wanna check that one with Snopes--think it's been called into question...

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm

Although it is sound advice for disposing of confirmed tangos...

 

[sacp81170a]

Beggin' yer pardon, SACP. I might be just the newb here, but I AM a military history major, and ya might wanna check that one with Snopes--think it's been called into question...

Whoops, you are correct. Just reread some of the history and the real story is that then-Capt. Pershing apparently threatened to throw a dipper of pig's blood at some Moro chieftains during a "negotiation" session. Pershing distinguished himself from his peers by actually learning some of the culture and language of his adversaries and using that knowledge to his advantage during his campaigns. I stand corrected, but the principle remains valid: we *could* use the customs and beliefs of our enemies against them if we weren't so damn PC.

BTW, Snopes should have caught the fact that Black Jack Pershing wasn't promoted to General until after that conflict.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Seeker_two....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cropcirclewalker
Dubya is the Abraham Lincoln of the 21st century.

Not meant as a compliment.

...and cropcirclewalker as Chief Teacher of National History...

Thanks for the support.

Sometimes the truth needs to come out even if it is in opposition to what is taught in .gov schools.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

This film further reminds us of the nature of the enemy we face. An enemy who will stop at nothing to achieve world domination and force a life devoid of freedom upon all. Their methods are inhumane and their targets are the innocent and unsuspecting. We call this conflict the "War on Terror." This film is a wake-up call. And although we abhor terrorism as a tactic, we are at war with a real enemy and it is personal.

Well, although it is true that their methods are inhumane and their targets are the innocent and unsuspecting, and that they are deplorable and wrong, it is not true that their purpose has anything to do with taking over the United States, making it Muslim, or killing each non-Muslim in the world. Their ONLY purpose is getting the United States out of the Middle East. They see our influence there as the primary cause of their problems, and they want us out.

We are to the present world what Rome was to the ancient. If the various peoples under Rome's control at that time had the ability to blow stuff and people up in Italy, they too would have done so. We are a Roman giant pressing our huge thumb down on these little midgets all over the Middle East for our own ends and purposes, without regard for the wishes and desires of the people we are stepping on. They cannot stand up to this huge Roman giant and fight him on his own terms, so they hope to poke at his eyes, and grab hold of his genitals, until he finds it so unpleasant that he steps back to his own home.

There is no benefit in intentionally misunderstanding our enemies, people. They don't hate us because we have the freedom to buy Playboy Magazine and eat pork. That's a pack of lies fed to you by those whose interests lie in using American might to dominate the world for internationalist purposes. They hate us because, to them, we are a huge Roman giant stepping all over them in their own countries, meddling in their own affairs.

Now you can go ahead and flame away. I've said my piece.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

We are under a greater threat of death, injury or disruption of our freedom from our own misguided government's actions every day than we ever are from these terrorists. We've already had more of our brave soldiers killed and injured in the war in Iraq than Americans were ever killed by terrorists.

+1

 

[Kaylee]

I just saw it yesterday.. ouch. Talk about opening up old wounds. I was sobbing in the theater a couple times, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

That said.. I DO NOT believe that the "jihadists" are imaginary, a creation of right-wing fear mongering, limited in their aims to simply getting us out of the Middle East (so they can destroy Israel), or otherwise not worth going after.

Everytime I've heard of the Taliban, and what they were doing over the last several years, it sent a chill up my spine. Not unlike hearing of the activities of the Japanese in China must have been in the late 30's. Frightening, chilling -- even outright enraging. But then, like now, it wasn't our fight, so we stayed out of it. Correctly, I think, as I don't savor the role of global policeman anymore than the rest of you.

However now, like then, they've made it our fight. They've become so accustomed to bullying their own people that they try to bully us, and expect to act with impunity. And so now, like then, they'll be dragged out of their holes like the vermin they are, and won't have the opportunity to tyranize anyone in their country or ours ever again.

me, Sept 30 2001

At the time, I believed the time had come to wipe militant islamicism from the face of the earth. I still believe that.

 

[grimjaw]

This film further reminds us of the nature of the enemy we face. An enemy who will stop at nothing to achieve world domination and force a life devoid of freedom upon all.

The film accurately shows an enemy who will stop at nothing in a quest for control. This enemy does not seek our resources, our land or our materials, but rather to alter our very way of life. Good thing we aren't talking about the spread of democracy and security, eh?

I can see that Muslim countries have been invading the west for centuries, establishing colonies, and plundering their resources.

I don't follow this. Terrorism is a desperate act. It is not the preferred method of combat of conquerors with even a glint of hope of achieving their goals of 'world domination.' Osama, Zarqawi, whoever else squats with an AK in the background and sends the tapes to Aljazeera, these people don't 'control' anything, and they can't. They don't take responsibility for the welfare of the groups they supposedly want to control and that's what is required today. Do you think Hamas would have won the Palestinian elections if they hadn't also provided charity and support to their own people? What does someone like Zarqawi offer? Nothing. They might be tools of a government that cannot strike directly, and in times past even we might have funded them, but they won't win wars. They can create chaos and nothing more.

Saddam had WMD before the war, likely shipped them to other countries and planned to build them again. He was a real threat.

*Yawn*. What countries, and why aren't we demanding the UN Securiity Council look into that? We were free enough with the intel leading up to the war. These WMD's that were justification for the toppling of Saddam are justification to topple his allies, aren't they?

The only countries Saddam was a threat to were in his region, to include IRAN, and before you start telling me about Israel, there are still countries calling for Israel's destruction that are talking about nuclear fuel production and we haven't invaded them yet. I do not believe CIA press releases on the subject of Iraq.

You want to see a country that's under siege from terrorists and extremists, check out Israel. They don't have the luxury of an ocean between them and their enemies, it's just spitting distance. If any country had justification to wage an all out war and create scorched earth around its borders for several hundred miles, it's them. But they don't do this. Why, I couldn't tell you, above my pay grade. We've even blocked them from doing so (Yom Kippur war, IIRC).

I have no wish to see this 'Flight 93' movie or any of the other documentaries about the event, much less the tinfoil hat stuff that's been pieced together from footage. I don't need it to remind me of what I felt that day. I will not be terrorized, and I will not let fear cause me to throw away liberty in vain.

jmm

 

[Otherguy Overby]

I couldn't let this pass, friend:

The Real Hawkeye:
Well, although it is true that their methods are inhumane and their targets are the innocent and unsuspecting, and that they are deplorable and wrong, it is not true that their purpose has anything to do with taking over the United States, making it Muslim, or killing each non-Muslim in the world. Their ONLY purpose is getting the United States out of the Middle East. They see our influence there as the primary cause of their problems, and they want us out.

What you say is true, but...

Okay let's suppose we pick up our toys and leave. Who's the next they want out/killed? The Jews? Well let's relocate them (fat chance). When we remove everyone they hate, do you really think they'll be happy and stay home?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

What you say is true, but...

Okay let's suppose we pick up our toys and leave. Who's the next they want out/killed? The Jews? Well let's relocate them (fat chance). When we remove everyone they hate, do you really think they'll be happy and stay home?

You and I both know that they wouldn't and couldn't kick Israel out, even if we stopped sending them huge chunks of money confiscated from hard working American families desperately trying to make ends meet. That's because they have nukes and they have the best army in the region, with the best equipment and weapons money can buy. Once you are in the Nuke club, no nation's army is going to invade your borders and win. That's why Clinton could step on Milosevic. That's why Bush could step on Hussein. That's why Bush can do nothing about Kim Il Sung, and that's why Iran wants nukes.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Me thinks you still miss my point:

You and I both know that they wouldn't and couldn't kick Israel out, even if we stopped sending them huge chunks of money confiscated from hard working American families desperately trying to make ends meet. That's because they have nukes and they have the best army in the region, with the best equipment and weapons money can buy. Once you are in the Nuke club, no nation's army is going to invade your borders and win. That's why Clinton could step on Milosevic. That's why Bush could step on Hussein. That's why Bush can do nothing about Kim Il Sung, and that's why Iran wants nukes.

My point is: leaving these uber-Islamicists to themselves is at best a temporary solution.

What absolutely confounds me is WHY are so many against developing new sources of oil/energy that could limit a transfer of wealth/funding to these miscreants?

We've petro-dollar funded psychopathic Luddites who can't be appeased. IOW, we will be damned for leaving, staying, or doing something. Even if we some how happen to do something actually correct, we'll still be damned.

We are nearly at the point where if we don't apply a nuclear solution, they will.