S&W Victory Model Questions

[sarge83]

I ran across an S&W Victory Model at the local gun/pawn shop. It has the US property stamp and the GHD next to it on the top strap. I can find no other proof marks. The lanyard ring has been removed, 4 inch barrel, and it is chambered in .38 S&W, it has diamond checkered grips, serial # V5434##

The shop owner thinks it is a .38 special but the barrel markings indicate .38 S&W caliber.

Mechanical wise the trigger is smooth and action is nice. Couple of very light rust areas looks like. It does need some TLC on the inside as the cylinder is quite stiff and requires more than normal effort to open it up from the frame. Asking price $249, he offered it for $235 OTD.

Any thoughts on this one? Thanks!

 

[rcmodel]

Sounds like a parts gun.

All Victory models were chambered in .38 Special.
And it will say .38 S&W Special CTG on the right side of the barrel.

K200's sent to England were .38/200 / .38 S&W.

By that mid-range serial number, it should have most certainly had smooth walnut grips on it.

SO, it is a U.S. GI Victory alright, with a different barrel & grips on it.



rc

 

[MikeJackmin]

If it turns out it is a .38 S&W British gun, note than many were re-imported to the US, and poorly rechambered for 38 Special ammunition. .38 S&W cartridges are wider than .38 Special, so the resulting chambers are too large and they do not perform well. You can tell if they have been rechambered simply by seeing if they will accept .38 Special ammo.

 

[Walkalong]

Asking price $249, he offered it for $235 OTD

If it is indeed a .38 S&W instead of .38 Spl, I would be all over that. I really enjoy mine. If it was .38 S&W but was "rechambered" to .38 Spl I would walk away.

 

[waidmann]

Look at RC's photo. That is 4" measured from cylinder to muzzle. A British Service Revolver V serial in that range should be 5" long. The grips should be smooth and the butt swivel should be in place. Even conservative shopping will not bring the parts home for under $50. I am not as freaked out as some over the caliber conversion issue, and you can always shoot the original .38 S&W ammo out of the deepened chambers.

If the barrel has been shortened, chambers reamed, stocks replaced and swivel missing I would simply pass in favor of a correct M&P with honest wear.

I see no point in having a military revolver not in the original configuration.

 

[Walkalong]

I am not as freaked out as some over the caliber conversion issue

And obviously a lot of people did not care about it, bought hundreds of them and shot them.I have zero problem with it.

But my take on it is twofold.

1. I like the .38 S&W caliber.

2. There are tons of nice Model 10s out there that were originally chambered in .38 Spl.

 

[rcmodel]

Even conservative shopping will not bring the parts home for under $50.

I'm thinking more like $250.

Grips will bring $75 - $100+ for good ones.
Lanyard swivel, if you can find one = $25 - $50.
A Victory model barrel = $100 - $150+.

rc

 

[Old Fuff]

During the early years of World War Two before we entered it, Smith & Wesson made .38-200 revolvers with 4, 5 and 6-inch barrels, using both finished and unfinished barrels made during the Great Depression.

They had continued to make both revolvers and parts they had no use for to keep they're labor force busy and employed. Both the management and owners (often the same) realized that the skilled workers were a critical component in the manufacturing process - so much so that they didn't have - or need - a complete set of drawings for the K-frame revolver.

When the war came this massive supply of parts made it possible to turn out production in numbers previously not seen. It is also the reason that those who have studied examples made during 1940 to early 1942 sometimes find examples that are not what might be expected, and this might be one of them.

But I don't think so, because the serial number indicates 1943 manufacture.

If the revolver was indeed made as it is now, I would suspect that an unknown number of 4-in/,38 Special barrels were mis-stamped as being .38 S&W/.38-200.

Before getting too deep into this I suggest that the back face of the cylinder and rear/bottom of the barrel be examined to see if the serial numbers stamped there match the one on the bottom of the butt. Swing out the cylinder to see both. In addition -if the shop owner will allow it - remove the stocks and see if the same serial number is penciled on the inside of one or both panels. Only then can we hopefully proceed to a conclusion.

 

[rcmodel]

For what it's worth.

My early 1944 Victory Model has the serial number hand stamped with very small number stamps in an irregular line in the inside of the right grip only.

I know it is all original, because it went to sea brand new on the maiden voyage of the USS Franklin aircraft carrier, and came back home on it unfired after it was bombed in 1945.

rc

 

[BHP FAN]

I've had both, the .38/200 Australian Lend Lease ''Coast Watcher's'' revolver and a .38 special USN pilot's revolver. In addition to the models RC and Old Fuff mentioned there were ''pre Victory'' that fall inside the Victory serial range, and bunches of revolvers issued to security guards for vital war effort industry making airplanes and tanks, and shipyards and such. There's a lot about them over on the S&W Collector's web site.

 

[sarge83]

Hey gentleman thanks for all the information I appreciate it. I am going to do as old fluff suggested and check the cylinder and beneath the grips. I am not in the market for another model 10. I would like a victory model, I just want a nice one.

 

[Jim K]

"All Victory models were chambered in .38 Special."

Hi, Rcmodel,

True, but the statement needs some explanation. S&W made M&P revolvers for the British and other countries in .38 S&W or .38/200 caliber. The factory called that model the ".38/200 British Service Revolver" or "K-200". When they reached serial number 999999, they started over with 1, prefaced by a "V" (for Victory), but they did not formally use the term "Victory Model" at that point. It was not until about V40000, when they began making the same gun for the U.S. in .38 Special caliber that they began to use the term Victory Model for that gun and that gun only. So, it is true that all Victory Models were .38 Special. The two models were made on the same lines at the same time and are indistinguishable except for the barrel marking and the chamber. (I have slugged a few barrels, and it looks like the internal barrel dimensions are the same (.357-.358 groove), regardless of the caliber marked on the barrel. I would like to hear from others on this.)

But most collectors call all S&W M&P revolvers of the WWII era that have "V" serial numbers "Victory Models." And that can be confusing if the term is narrowly used to mean ONLY those revolvers made in .38 Special.

I admit to using the term for any M&P with a V serial number, even though I know that it is really an error by factory terminology.

Jim

 

[Walkalong]

Mine is a V 724XXX and chambered for .38 S&W with the lanyard loop and smooth wooden stocks. I have always called it a Victory model. What would it be?

 

[rcmodel]

Jim K
I agree.

But info is slim on the OP's gun question, with no more info forthcoming so far.
And there is not enough bandwidth to write about all the subtle variations of the British K-200 and the U.S. Victory Model's in one post.

If someone truly has an interest in the U.S. Victory Model revolver?

I would suggest a copy of:
U.S. Handguns of World War II
The Secondary Pistols & Revolvers.
By Charles W. Pate.

It is out of print now, but if you can find one, it has more factual information then I have seen in one place anywhere else.


My other thought was, if it was a British K-200 .38/200 / .38 S&W originally, or a re-chambered one that's a .38 Spl now?

It would have way more British proof marks on it.
The OP said that one has 'US property and GHD' on the top strap and no other markings.

That makes it a re-barreled U.S. G.I. .38 Spl Victory model .38 Special with the wrong barrel & grips, and not a re-chambered British K-200 .38/200.

Based on my limited experience.

rc

 

[Jim K]

I was around when those guns came back in, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth about reaming .38 S&W chambers to take .38 Special was loud and continuous. I, like many others, believed that firing a .38 Special in a .38 S&W chamber would result in a burst case, with fire and smoke devouring the shooter. Further, the .357" .38 Special bullet would hop down the huge barrel of the .38 S&W and give horrible accuracy. And of course, if somehow a .38 S&W with its huge bullet, was somehow fired in a .38 Special, the gun would blow up and wipe out at least the town, if not the whole county.

Well, later, I did all of those things, and nothing happened. At worst, .38 Specials fired in ex-.38 S&W chambers bulged a bit, but no more than they bulged in some .38 Special chambers. No splits, no bursts, no atomic explosions. And I slugged some .38 S&W ".38/200" barrels and found they ran .357-.358", the same as .38 Special. And I miked British .380 bullets and they run .357", not .380". The only question I have is whether S&W "cheated" in the .38/200 contracts and made all the barrels .38 Special (.357") dimensions, or whether I got some on the low side of the specs.

Jim

 

[sarge83]

Hi guys,

I went back and did some more checking, old fluff was correct, parts gun, nothing matched up. And the shop owner didn't believe it was a .38 S&W until he tried to put a .38 Sp. in the cylinder and it wouldn't fit. I told him I would pass and he said he understood. I do appreciate your help. Regards.