sa/da (my eyes are burning out of my head)

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joe sixpack

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May 16, 2004
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Yes, it's very late but I'm excited about getting out to a range this a.m.
to check out some more pistols, and I've been trying to read as much
as I can on these and other forums since I got off work yesterday at 6:00 pm.

Basically the question is which is safer, easier for the novice - single action,
double action only, sa/da or da/sa? I'm looking at the 9mm caliber,
or 9x19 or even .380 for just messing around at the range and also
to double as a home defense weapon in a pinch.

Now, It would seem to me that the safest of the handguns would be
the simple cowboy type, six-shooter guns. However, for whatever
the reason these do not appeal to me. I did the country western
thing after my second wife dumped me and my pal and I hung out
at the bars listening to some truely mourneful singing, and it's been many years and I've moved on, and I don't have trucks or dogs even.
(j/k) (supposed to be one of those smiley faces inserted here).

My very first handgun shooting experince occured several years ago
at an outdoor range and I tried a 9mm and a .45. I really don't remember
much about that and which gun felt better, just that it was loud when you
shot them.

My second handgun shooting experience happened last week at the
LAX firing range. There were 4 security guards flanking me on one side doing some sort of gun re-qualification, and on my other side right next
to me a shooter was using some kinda rifle that was exceedingly noisy
and ejected brass or steel or whatever in my general direction. So I am
trying to fill bullits into the mags and put the whole assembly together so it shoots and doesn't kill me or others (thankfully
my 16y.o. stepson was with me an he is a fairly experienced shooter).
I had read in forums about NDs, KBs and ADD and various safety measures like how the gun is treated like it is always loaded and to never point at anything you don't want to fire on and so forth. So I'm like a little uptight and strained you know, I'm looking at whatever gun I happen to be renting at the moment and feeling somewhat fearful of screwing up in some irretrievably bad fashion. Theres these little buttons I'm not familiar with and the slide. What if I hit the wrong one? Okay, so I get the mag in correctly in the Glock 19 9mm and run my little paper tgt out some distance away and ask my kid how I should hold the gun and whats the proper stance and such.
So I fire away cautiously. He tries it and we alternate a couple times
putting more ammo through the gun. After several more trial guns and a hundred rounds of ammo expent by us, some other guy and his pal sets up a station to the other side of the rifleman, and he and his pal start blasting away with a shotgun and some handgun that had 2 dollar bullits - sending shock waves to reverberate off the walls and into my head. This in addition to the occasional FTF and FTE which I knew nothing about how to handle leaving my son in the position of basically being responsible unjamming our rental weaps from time to time. So he was "the man" out there making
sure all was safe in our handling of the weapons. I felt somewhat
at affect in that situation and know I need to come to more knowledge
of handguns and safety.
Anyways the point of the above in this post was even though I did
get to try some different guns (g19, g17, sig p236, h@k something or rather, Berretta, Springfield midgit gun were some of them), the other factors in the experience plus the complete unfamiliarity with weaps
in general made it difficult to truly determine which of those were the best
for me. The actual shooting of the guns was rather foreign and with
all the noise and waves of energy bouncing around from the multitudes of weaps being shot it was difficult to evaluate. However - it was fun, and I am still interested in handguns, the process shall go forward.

I will have to retry these and other weapons again now that I have some familiarity with the shooting environment. I think maybe an outdoor range would make the evaluation process easier as perhaps the energy being released disipates easier. However the one I know of (the Angeles Shooting Range) I don't believe they rent weaps. Ok too much coffee for one night.

I thought some of this would relate the "noob" experience to those
who've forgotten.

Best, ab
 
Go out and buy yourself an inexpensive .22LR pistol, such as a Browning or Ruger. Then, go to an outdoor range during a weekday, when it's not so crowded and noisy, and you can relax and enjoy yourself. You'll never regret having the .22 around later when you want some cheap practice, and it will get you accustomed to handling a semi-auto. Once you know what you're doing, you can go back to the rental range and do a better comparison of the various 9mms or whatever.
 
See, glocks do jam. :eek:

I think Single action autoloaders are great guns to start out with for new shooters because the gun has a manual thumb safety as well as the grip safety. So, for range shooting, it has a grip safety like many DA/SA guns, but also has an extra precautionary safety.

I started out shooting BB guns and pellet guns. All of them have manual safeties somewhere on the gun. With the real firearms these days, only internal safeties are used (trigger safety, grip safety) and an external manual safety isn't used like the BB guns I learned on.


So my recommendation. Since you also want a house gun for protection, the .45 ACP is a great round. My suggestion would be a 1911 in .45 ACP, and getting a Marvel .22 conversion kit to start out shooting. .22's are a lot of fun, and it'll help solve flinching which occurs with higher caliber guns.
 
I'm with the "get a .22" clan; like the man said: you will never regret the purchase and you cant really go wrong. Just buy a quality big brand piece; Ruger, Colt , S&W, Sig, Browning and it will last you a lifetime. They are cheap to feed, easy to learn with, fun as hell...and really would work fine if need ever arised for home defense. It would most certainly be better than a .45 that you never shoot cause it's too expensive/or kicks too much or whatever! Also, used properly, you would be barricaded in your safe place, dialing 911 with pisitol pointed at the door. Let the trained guy's with the taxpayers guns clear your house whenever possible. I love .45's but allways hesitate to tell folks to run out and get one as a first pistol; simply because they are expensive to feed. In my experiance you either have to reload or be rich to shoot them alot. The .22 conversions are nice but, it still seems like another potential problem. I have had Ciener and (god, name evades) for a few guns; never a Marvel,: the few I've owned have been picky on ammo and kinda cobled together engeneering wise. Anyhow, regaurdless of what you pick! It's great to hear from new shooters...keep it up, be safe and have fun!:D
 
I second what Keederdag and the others said. You will get a lot of cheap practice while (hopefully) learning good gun safety habits. Buy a quality .22 and you will never regret it.

As for what action type, you'll have to try em out and decide for yourself.
The Glock does not have a manual safety, so that's one less lever on that gun. If you are looking for simplicity, a double action revolver is about as good as it gets.

Oh, and welcome to THR!
 
Consider some formal training...

...Some ranges offer some very basic instruction to the truly unitiated. Not trying to offend, but it seems like you may fall into that category. There's nothing wrong with that. Even the "experts" around here did not come out of the womb ready to do detailed disassemblies, shoot double-taps like a pro', or draw like Marshall Dillon :D.

The NRA also may offer some instruction in your area.

If you don't have someone close to you that can provide competent instruction, it's perhaps best to learn before you buy. After some formal instruction, I'd recommend renting some models with some guidance from your instructor.

A handgun is a useful tool, but it is also nothing to be trifled with. Like an automobile, it's an inanimate object without moral values. Like an automobile, if used improperly, the results can be lethal.

Enjoy shooting sports, find ways to get out there and enjoy it. The practical benefit of knowing how to defend yourself is obvious and Constitutionally guaranteed (while under attack). However, everyone needs someone to teach them the rules of safety and proper operation of a handgun. For many of us, we've been lucky to have someone close to us that could do that for us. Formal training is a viable option, please consider it as you review the advice that these knowledgable THR members will provide you.

Best wishes,

CZ52'
 
Fellow forum members - I thank you very much for the advice and welcoming.

I'm feeling much better about handguns now. I got a chance to try out
more with someone who is experienced and am now moving towards
acquiring my first piece. I seem to be able to hit what I aim at and am
able to group my shots fairly easy.

So, now it's on to choosing which to semi-auto to get.

My thoughts are to go with 9mm as the ammo reportedly is cheaper
than for .40, .45 or anything of higher caliber, and I plan to shoot
with some regularity.

My favorites so far of the weapons I have tried are:

Sig p236 (felt better to me than the p239)

H@K something or rather (the compact felt better to me than the
regular version)

Glock 17 (it felt better than the 19)

The following I have not yet had the pleasure to fire but did
try them on for size and fit and controls and would like to shoot them
as well before I choose my first gun:

CZ 75BD (feels good in hand, slide seems slightly tougher to use)

Bulgarian Makarov 9x18 (fits well and seems very simple - sa?)

CZ 83 (only if I could get the 9x18 and not sure if this is on the California
Approved Handgun List)

Now I know there are some major price differences here with the H@K
and Sig at the high end, CZ and Glock in the middle and the Makarov at the very low.

Being new to this and not having a lot of extra cash for such a purchase,
more than likely if I decide to go for one of the higher end items I
would have to find something pre-owned.

Any comments, suggestions or rebukes?(insert smiley here)

Best, ab

ps: props to these forums and the people posting here. When going into
a Gun Shop I feel I am more "armed" with the proper knowledge which
helps me and I don't just have the viewpoint of the sales associate to
evaluate weaps.
 
Ok, I've been given the opportunity to talk to quite a few non-shooters and get them into the sport lately. I'm by NO MEANS an expert here... just been mucking with handguns for about 3 years now is all.

One, 9mm and 9x19mm are the same thing. This is trivial, I'm not picking on your or anything, but the terminology is VERY easy to get confused with.

9mm Luger (most common and cheapest) is 9x19mm
9x18mm is the Marakrov round
.380 is the same thing as 9x17mm.

They're not interchangable either even though the measurements seem like "well, close enough! It -should- work!". They're quite different in effectiveness too. The 9x18mm stuff will be harder to come by as it's not really a typical handgun round for most people. Not much besides a Makarov uses it these days that I'm aware of. I'd imagine anything else still in use would be rather obscure.

As far as the "safest" gun to learn -- personally the fewer buttons and levers the better. Even a "complex" handgun only has four or five controls though:

- Trigger
- Slide release
- Magazine release
- Safety and/or decocker
- Hammer (if external)

Oh, and a "grip safety" which is released once you get a firm grip on the gun. You'll see 'em on 1911 style pistols and the Springfield XD line mostly. H&K has one also, but it's pressed by the fingers around the pistol grip rather than the more common method which is pressed down by the webbing between your thumb and index finger.

Your wheel guns (revolvers) just give you a trigger and a hammer -- sometimes just a trigger even.

Glocks, well you've got a trigger, magazine release, and a slide release. There's no confusion about what makes it go bang and what doesn't either.

Honestly, in the first year I owned a CZ-75B (one of the models you mentioned fondling) I never engaged the safety. Took it to the range, loaded racked, fired. That was it. Maybe I futzed with it once or twice, but certainly never relied on it keeping the gun from firing.

The biggest fear, or danger if you will, with a handgun IMHO is that it's much easier to point it in the wrong direction. Muzzle control is easier to lose than with a long gun. Just remember to always treat it loaded, always keep it pointed in a safe direction, and always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire and you're good to go -- at least when at a range. The fourth rule "knowning your target and what's behind it" really only comes into play when not on a shooting range that's properly setup and orderly. Still important though!

Seeing as how you don't have any engrained preferences I'd just find something that fits your hand and shots a reasonable caliber. The 9mm Luger (9x19mm the most common 9mm round) fits the bill. It's "good enough" for self defense and "cheap enough" for range time.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to start with a .22 either -- even better would be to get a .22LR conversion kit for your pistol of choice. I know the 1911 models have this option available, the CZ-75 does also, and the Glock 17 and 19 should also but I've never personally researched that. The .22LR rounds are VASTLY cheaper though -- figure $8-$12 per 500 rounds vs. $50-$60-$70 for 100 rounds of 9mm ammo.

An outdoor range has always been vastly more relaxing to me. There's less noise and less crowding, at least in the places I shoot at. If you can find one in your area it's probably going to be easier to get comfortable there than indoors where it's a bit stuffy and a bit crowded. Too much hussle and bustle! :D

I wouldn't recommend the CZ 83 as your first hangun however for two reasons: .380 (9x17mm) ammo is more expensive than 9mm Luger (9x19mm) and the design (if I'm not mistaken) with the CZ-83 is a straight blow back design -- or at least most .380's are! The recoil is more harsh because of this even though you're shooting a smaller less poweful round. It's marginal for self defense also -- although still "good enough" depending on who you ask and what the situation is. There's absolutely nothing WRONG with the firearm, nor the design, nor the round -- but perhaps not a good first choice.

I wouldn't worry too much about the ability to rack the slide right now as a purchasing choice. Given that you mention you like the Glock 17 more than the Glock 19 I presume you've got some big 'ole paws on you so you're probbaly a fairly large guy. I'm a wee man at 5'8" and 140lbs and the Glock 19 and Glock 23 (same size) pistols fit my hands like a glove. Any issues you have with racking the slide are probably a technique problem. Rather than try to pull the slide back "cup" it with your weak hand get a grasp on it and push forward with the strong hand on the pistol grip with your finger OFF THE TRIGGER and totally outside the trigger guard. Far, far easier! Besides, the springs will wear down a bit after some extra use and you'll become very comfortable very quick with the best technique for whatever pistol you purchase first. This also prevents you from pointing the pistol too far up, down, left or right while you struggle with the slide. Just push it foward and down range :D

Seeing as how you're interested in auto-loaders I'll also add this: You can't go wrong with a Sig, H&K, Glock, Springfield XD series, Ruger P-series, CZ, Beretta, and probably more that I've failed to remember right now. If you do with the 1911 / 45ACP route there's a slew of options out there also that are of high quality and won't let you down. Like I said though, just find something that fits your hand and feels comfortable. It's no fun trying to shoot something that doesn't feel comfortable. The goal, when starting out, is just to get something that you can migrate into being an extension of your body over time. Might as well make sure it grips right in your paws to ease the learning curve.

Oh, and compared to the VAST majority of posters on this board I'm quite honestly a know-nothing young'in :) There is a SLEW of information to be gained from the people here so if anybody contradicts what I said above, it probably means I'm wrong and I'll admit that upfront.
 
Oh, crap, I meant to adress your DA/SA stuff in the thread title too. Seems that nobody quite broke it down for you yet so I guess I might as well try. Confused the living pooh out of me at first too!

SA == Single Action
DA == Double Action

SA means that the trigger pull is only doing enough work to release the hammer and let the hammer fall down with enough force to smack the firing pin and ignite the primer which ignites the powder and does what we all love about firearms: Send that projectile down range.

DA means that the trigger pull pulls BACK the hammer first (step one) and then releases the hammer and does all of the above. There's two steps to the process.

Now, the vast majority of your auto-loaders are going to be in SA mode on shots #2 to the end of the magazine. Actually there going to be SA from shot #1 unless you decock the pistol. This is confusing, and something that's not REALLY much of an issue unless you're actively going to be deploying your weapon for self defense and keeping it around loaded all the time. It's baffled more than one person that I've tried explaining it to before.

I'm sure this is all covered in some general writeup somewhere, but I'll just spew it forth anyway seeing as how I'm bored and can't sleep.

SA pulls are shorter and require less force than a DA pull. Random figures off the top of my head that don't have too much bearing on reality would say your typical DA pull is going to be about 9 pounds of pressure and your typical out of the box SA pull is going to be about 4-5 pounds of pressure. Takes a little more effort and a little more distance to get that DA pull to happen. That's why some pistols are DA/SA and some are just SA. With a DA/SA pistol you insert magazine, rack slide, and the hammer is COCKED ready to fire in SA mode. You smack the decocker button and the hammer drops (safely!) back into DA mode. With just an SA mode pistol instead of a decocker you flick the safety on. There is currently enough energy in the hammer fall to detonate the pistol but you've placed something in the way of the hammer so that it can't strike the firing pin. That worries some people -- and they generally go with a DA/SA pistol at that point. There's quite often way more to the internal mechanisms than just that, but to the observer that's all that's going on.

SA = has enough energy in the hammer to ignite cartridge
DA = has no energy at all in the hammer. It's in a "rest" state and has no energy.

Now, to flip you out a bit, there's what Glock calls "Safe Action" and other manufacturers out there. It's a half-and-half solution. The hammer has some energy in it, but not enough to ignite the primer and cause the firearm to fire. Think of this as having your pistol "half cocked". If, somehow, you managed to release the hammer and have it whack the firing pin nothing would happen. Granted, this should be impossible, but if you were to whip the pistol across the room with a cartridge loaded into it and somehow mysteriouisly the hammer dropped it still wouldn't go off. The trigger pull adds the little bit of energy left needed to cause a primer ignition and then the final bit of the pull releases the hammer and the magic happens.

Yes, Glock's don't have a hammer, they have a striker, but we'll just ignore that for now. Same idea, different design -- this is just getting you enough knowledge to make a good choice, not enough to make you a gunsmith!

That should help explain why various triggers will feel slightly different. Grab a Sig or Beretta with a decocker and have somebody explain to you how to use it first hand. Chamber a round, hit the decocker, and see how different trigger pull #1 is from trigger pull #2. Then, compare to a Glock, which will pretty much feel like a squishy squirt-gun trigger.

All of that is far easier to demonstrate 1st hand though on a revolver with an external hammer.

I think I'll shut up for the night now :D
 
Glad you are getting some help with your shooting...

...re: choices you've mentioned:

- Sig p236 (felt better to me than the p239) - guessing you meant P226...it's a little bigger, probably points a little better for you. Fine gun, but most come with a Decocker (allows you to take the pistol from ready to fire Single Action - short lighter trigger to Double Action - still ready to fire, but Double Action triggers generally take much more "intent" to fire). Nice gun, very nice gun...expensive, but a quality piece.

- H@K something or rather (the compact felt better to me than the
regular version) - Was it a USP?

Glock 17 (it felt better than the 19) - seems like you gravitate toward a slightly larger piece...longer "sight radius"...observed distance between front and rear sights...longer generally is easier to shoot accurately. Glocks are very reliable and simple to operate. They do not have a manual safety which is a concern for some. Others find their appearance to be somewhat "utilitarian"...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...I have 3 Glocks, enjoy them all.


The following I have not yet had the pleasure to fire but did
try them on for size and fit and controls and would like to shoot them
as well before I choose my first gun:

CZ 75BD (feels good in hand, slide seems slightly tougher to use) - With smaller hands, some of the controls aren't as easy to reach...however, this is a quality/value piece...very similar to the P226 in operation...generally can be found for significantly less $$. I have two CZ-75's...luv 'em!!!

Bulgarian Makarov 9x18 (fits well and seems very simple - sa?) - Mak's are SA/DA...similar in some respects to the Sig P226 in operation except that it has both a Decocker and Manual Safety. Some complain that for it's size, it has excessive recoil. I find my two Mak's to be very pleasant to shoot and the ammo' is quite affordable...for practical self-defense applications, it does not have the same "stopping power" reputation as some of the others you've selected. However, Communist bloc' militaries used these for decades...I would not feel under-gunned at close range with either of my Mak's. They are also very affordable to acquire, <$200. A good source of info' for all things Makarov is www.makarov.com.

CZ 83 (only if I could get the 9x18 and not sure if this is on the California
Approved Handgun List). Good idea to get the CZ83 in 9x18 as opposed to the .380...although a .380 is better than sharply worded rebuke...the 1st rule of being in a gunfight...need a gun. This is a terrific little piece, wish I had one...sort of the Lexus to the Makarov as Toyota...if you follow...somewhat oversized for the caliber which makes it very pleasant to shoot (by all accounts). One of our moderators has a good review of this piece here... http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BestBuys2.htm you have to scroll down the page some to get to the CZ-83 info'.

Now I know there are some major price differences here with the H@K
and Sig at the high end, CZ and Glock in the middle and the Makarov at the very low.

Being new to this and not having a lot of extra cash for such a purchase,
more than likely if I decide to go for one of the higher end items I
would have to find something pre-owned.

Any comments, suggestions or rebukes?(insert smiley here)

It seems like you are heading in the right direction. Take your time. Again, if you can try before you buy that is a very good thing. Try to find something you truly enjoy shooting. If you enjoy shooting, and can afford to practice, you will practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. Shooting is a skill you will want to evolve and refine for yourself over time, especially if you believe you may require it for self-defense some day.

Finally, Not everybody is "wired" to take physical steps to defend themselves, especially with a firearm. I was at a competition this weekend and a LEO (law enforcement officer) was discussing the training he provides to recruits...many of us have some hesitancy to deploying deadly force, even if it is justified. Not trying to discourage you, but it's something that should be considered as part of this journey you've begun.

Seems like you are on the right track to me. :)

Wishing you the very best.

Stay safe,

CZ52'
 
Again, these forums are extremely helpful.

Gambrinus - thank you for the hot tip on Oak Tree Gun Club. I have
e-mailed them for rates and what rentals are available.

wardog - agreed re the 9mm ammo price, thank you.

Gigabuist - very helpful indeed, particularly about the da/sa actions.
I understand this better, and hope to soon set about using my new
weapon at the range and see this in practice.

CZ52Guy - indeed, p226 was what I meant. H@K I tried was the compact
model which felt better to me than the full size. I seem to like the standard
sizes or a decent sized compact. I did enjoy how a p232 felt in my hand
today when I had the chance to try one out, and also a CZ P0-1 - very
nice.

I put a deposit down on a gun today (didn't get a chance to shoot it first - this may be a mistake on my part, won't be the first or last that is for certain), but hopefully it will turn out fine. Also for a couple hundred
bucks it's not a huge financial investment for getting started with guns.

I must complete a safety test for my "Handgun Safety Certificate",
pay them the rest of the money an voila! it's all mine.

I chose a Bulgarian unissued Makarov in 9x18 that came with
two mags a couple different grips and lots of... cosmoline?

I am hoping that this will slake my thirst for weapons and I'll not need
to buy any other gun. However, I can still not wrest myself from these forums... Stay tuned.

Best, ab



Btw CZ - on the recoil - did you leave the stock 17# springs in your two
or did you go higher?
 
makarov

action barbi, GREAT choice! you'll find you're spending less time fiddling with the gun and more time shooting. i also have two. both are as new. the ammo is affordable and they'll eat practically any thing. very few problems. extremely accurate. sights leave something to be desired. you'll probably want to up grade the grip. i have pearce on mine but you need a fairly big hand. i predict after the first box of ammo you'll be smiling from ear to ear. enjoy your mak and welcome to the shooting fraternity. don't forget as a previous poster advised, go to www.makarov.com for a ton of helpful information.:)
 
re: Mak' Springs

Btw CZ - on the recoil - did you leave the stock 17# springs in your two
Click to expand...

I went with a 19# spring in one, and left the stock spring in the other. I really don't notice that much difference.

You will find that the Mak' requires a FIRM grip...not to the point where your hand shakes, but it will not tolerate a "limp wrist"...you will get jam's if you limp wrist it. My Nephew is 26, about 6', around 220lbs...and he has gotten limp wrist jam's.

At the same time, I find that my Wife's BDA-380 (same caliber as the Sig P232 you mentioned) which she is quite competent and comfortable with, is marginally more pleasant for me to shoot. In other words, I know a large man who has had issues with a Mak' because of a less than firm grip, and an average size woman with a similar piece who has little or no difficulty. Me, I do just fine with either...it's about technique, not muscles...although squeezing a racket ball or tennis ball while watching TV might not be a bad idea because you will find that those same muscles are used to keep a steady sight picture and to help you manage the recoil.

Another thing to think about with a Mak' is changing out the grips. Unless you have very small hands, I recommend you consider a Pearce grip. It's a much more functional grip for defensive purposes...will tolerate some perspiration...and although some find it over sized, I wear a medium size man's glove and find that it fits me just fine.

I recommend the Russian ammo'...Barnaul JHP (jacketed hollow point) is available in quantity for about the same price as 9mm Value Packs at Wal-Mart. Unfortunately, the Barnaul you may have to order from some place like Midway USA, or Dans Ammo, and sometimes Ammoman.com has it for a fair price with free shipping. Another place online is the Ammunition Store.

I think you'll really like your Mak'. Be patient with yourself. Don't feel like you have to shoot like a pro' in a month. I'd recommend fewer rounds, more range sessions if feasible. Try to find ways to challenge yourself. Make it fun, so you keep practicing. Most of us here have been at it for some time...few of us are "satisfied" with our expertise...we're all trying to improve.

Most of all, stay safe! Remember the 4 Rules of Safety. There are some variations, but I find this one to be a good description of them:

http://www.idpa.com/safety.htm

One thing that I encountered with one of my Mak's was a finicky grip screw that would loosen up during firing. There is a product called Loc-Tite which is about the consistency of liquid glue which when applied, will "set" the screw so it won't loosen. At the same time (make sure you get the Blue kind), you will be able to remove the screw if needs be with a regular screw driver (and perhaps a little extra elbow grease). The Red Loc-Tite makes a fairly permanent bond...something you will want to avoid.

I think you'll find that most THR members are very interested in seeing new shooters join our ranks. Don't hesitate to ask questions, and we'll be interested to hear how you like your new Mak'.

Best wishes,

CZ52'
 
Mod12, thank you regarding my first handgun selection and yes
makarov.com is an excellent resource. That's two suggestions now on
the Pearce grips, so I will certainly keep that in mind if I have any difficulty
that an upgrade of this type would assist.

Thanks for all the information and suggestions CZ52Guy, I really appreciate it. There is a place around here that sells the 9x18 ammo and hopefully
it is Barnaul.

Re the limp wristing; I am 5' 11' and about 200lbs, I use both hands on
the gun and have yet to shoot one single handed. I'm not real familiar
with this phenomena, and hope that it is not something I have to worry
about. I would think it would be more common with those who shoot
single handed? Still though, once I get my confidence up on my double
handed shooting, I will probably take it to the next step.

Cheers, ab

ps: I so look forward to the day of acquistion.
 
re: Limp Wristing

You have tried several semi-auto's...no doubt, in order to load a round in the chamber you have had to pull on the slide to "work the action". During firing, the semi-auto uses the force of the exiting bullet to send the action backward, eject the spent case, and to strip a live round from the magazine to re-load.

There are others who I am sure can more eloquently describe the science involved...this is a "laymen's English" description.

You are also becoming familiar with the differences in spring weight which influences the amount of force required to pull back the slide...and also influences the reliability of the action during live fire.

You know that if you don't pull hard enough on the slide, the action does not work correctly...the reality is that manipulating a semi-auto slide is more of a "push-pull" phenomenon...one hand (generally your shooting hand) provides resistance while your non-dominant hand pulls back on the slide. Now you can "pull" with all your might, but if there is not enough "push" resistance to hold the firearm steady, you will be unable to chamber a live round...there won't be enough resistance with your strong hand to effectively use the strength in your non-dominant to reliably work the action.

During live fire, the recoil from the exiting bullet substitutes for the "pull". If you don't have a firm enough grip while shooting for a solid "push", the action will not function properly and will result in a jam.

Again, there are far more seasoned shooters than I that give you a more "scientific" description, but that's the best description I can come up with.

One hand shooting (when you are ready...with BOTH hands), will actually help your overall shooting technique. Someone who can maintain a solid one-hand grip during live fire is unlikely to limp wrist with two hands.

Stick to what is comfortable at first. Work in some one hand practice over time once you are ready to stretch yourself.

Another bit of advice if you have a place you can safely do it, is to buy some "snap caps" and do some dry fire practice.

Now the 4 rules of safety apply to dry fire as much as they do with live fire. Even a 9x18 bullet will go through walls...it will go through a stud...I've seen it demonstrated. If you do not have a place to safely dry fire, then do not attempt it. If you have a basement where the foundation would stop a bullet, that is ideal. Conventional wisdom is to have NO LIVE AMMUNITION in the same room where you are dry firing, NONE.

That disclaimer said, using a plastic bullet to safely work the action, and to give you a visual/physical prop to get used to loading, unloading, clearing jam's, and to simulate live fire is a TREMENDOUS teaching aid. Some seasoned shooters will tell you that Dry Fire is equally or more important than Live Fire training. This will be particularly useful when you want to consider one-hand shooting practice and especially non-dominant shooting. Drawing from a holster and clearing a dummy round from the chamber are also good "dress rehearsals" for live fire exercises as you develop your expertise.

I started competing this year in IDPA. Because of Indoor Range restrictions, there were many techniques which were forbidden at the Public Access Indoor Range where I practice in cold weather. However, Dry Fire techniques let me simulate several activities which the Indoor Range prohibits, but the competition requires. Dry fire gave me confidence going into my matches, I've since achieved a classification in IDPA, and have joined an outdoor range club which hosts the competitions and provides a suitable place for competition practice.

Again, only Dry Fire if you have a safe place to do so. Until you are more comfortable, you may want to have a shooting buddy help you with this activity, but Dry Fire can improve your skill evolution very rapidly...and you don't have to spend anything on ammo' or range fees...it's an investment of time.

Best wishes and safe shooting,

CZ52'
 
Your explanation of "limp wristing" arrived fully and is understood. I now understand why jams can be related to this phenomena and what
to do in case I am having trouble in this way.

Regarding the dry firing, well my house has no basement and it's made of
straw (well wood actually) not cement, so I guess I'm not in the place to do any dry firing.
That is kind of a drag, as part of having the pistol and getting better with
it was to have it in hand and practice with the slide and mags and ejection
of dry caps an such. Perhaps I'll just schedule a more full day of practice at the range.

Also, from what I've heard the Mak' can be fired without these caps
with no problem and that it would smooth the trigger out?
(I understand your post about the purpose of the dry caps for getting used
to the ejection and clearing jams and so forth).

Again thanks for the time and effort!

cheers, ab
 
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