Saiga Question: Which 308 barrel length?

[gino]

I was going to buy a Saiga in 308 at the gunshow today. They did not have the 21 inch barrel, just the 16 inch barrel. (for $369 NIB with one mag) Is the 308 worth it in a 16 inch barrel, or does much of the powder not have enough time to burn? What kind of loss in velocity are we talking about? Muzzle flash? Recoil?

Thanks for any help,
Gino

 

[JWarren]

Hi my friend.

I don't have the exact numbers but it actually surprised me how small the difference is between the 16 and 21 inch barrels really is. I was in the market for a 21" one last month, and when it came in, it was the 16 inch barrel one. After seeing what I got my hands on, I think I would have actually chosen the 16 inch barrel. So I got lucky I guess.

By the way... there is a forum for all things Saiga-- and has a section specifically for the Saiga 308.

It is:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/

They can help with just about any question you may have, including Pistol Grip conversions (I bought mine pre-converted), and there are a number of quality gunsmiths who can do work for you there (for a fee.) These include Danzig, Tromix, Red Jacket Firearms, and they guys at FBMG, who now have 20 round magazines available for the Saiga 308.

Good Luck and I hope you enjoy that Saiga as much as I have mine.


John

 

[Nightcrawler]

A lot of guys are going to tell you that .308 is no good with anything less than a 22" barrel. Others will say 18" is the minimum useful barrel length. It depends on which rifle they tend to favor; a lot of the M14 shooters say 22", a lot of the HK91 guys say 18", etc.

On the other hand, the FN SCAR-H that SOCOM is adopting? It comes in three barrel lengths (for the .308 version): 20" heavy barrel (sharpshooter), a 14" standard barrel, and an 11" CQB barrel.

So I don't think it's correct to say that .308 is no good out of a short barrel. Even out of an 11" barrel, it's got more muzzle velocity than 7.62x39 from a 16" barrel, depending on ammo.

Ammo is a factor, though. Standard NATO ball will do about 2,650 from a 16" barrel, give or take. South African chrono'd about 2575 from my 16.25" FAL, but the South African is I think a little underpowered (I had to adjust my gas setting when I switched to it from Portugese).

In the real world, I don't think the velocity difference will make any appreciable difference inside of a couple hundred yards. It will be louder, though, and with no flashhider you can get a bit of a fireball.

I'd get the 16". The 16" Saiga .308 is, in my opinion, an excellent truck/bushwackin'/backwoods gun. Powerful enough for most game animals, lightweight, compact, handy, and tough enough to handle neglect and abuse. They're much more reliable than, for example, a Remington 7400 and cost less to boot.

Recoil is more of a factor of weight than of barrel length. The Saiga carbines are pretty light, about eight pounds maybe, so it's going to get your attention. I don't think it'll be bad, though.

If you're really worried about the muzzle velocity, get the 21", but for plinking and most shooting, the 5" less barrel won't make much difference.

Oh, the REAL nice thing about the Saiga .308s? They can use Wolf steel-cased .308 ammo, which costs about half as much as American Eagle/Winchester White Box/UMC .308 FMJ, with no worries or issues!

 

[Dave R]

I actually measured this with a chronograph. Portugese 7.62 NATO in my Rem700 with 22" barrel clocks about 2,750fps. Same ammo from my CETME, which has about 16-17" of rifling before you get to the brake, clocks about 2,550.

 

[rangerruck]

most of your centerfires, lose on avg. about 50 fps per inch of bbl. what does this mean? Out at 300 yds, the dif in trajectory between a 16 in bbl ,and a 22 inch bbl, will proly drop about 6 inches for that 200 fps speed. So is it worth it to you? I have had the 308 Saiga, and it is mighty fine, and quite accurate, they make a great bbl there at Saiga. i hear no tales about the accuracy of the longer 22 in bbls, so i cant say. But if Saiga know how to reduce the whip effect of the longer bbl, then I would say that the longer bbl should be as, or more, acc. , than the 16 incher. Which is saying quite a bit, as all the shorties i have in 16 in bbl, (Saigas in 223 and 762 russian) are all moa capable.

 

[rbernie]

The 16" Saiga 308 doesn't have a threaded barrel for a flashhider, nor is there room at the end of the barrel for threads (since the front sight tower is pushed all the way to the very end of the barrel). Flash from a 16" barrel without any means of dissapating it can be pretty ferocious.

I handled both for a while, and ultimately decided that the increased velocity and lower flash signature of the 21" version was more compelling that the minor difference in handling that I'd get from the 16" version. Also - if you ever *do* want a 18" version with threaded barrel, remember that it's easier to make a barrel shorter than to make it longer.

 

[JWarren]

There are a number of Gunsmiths on the Saiga forum that can assist with any muzzle brake issues.

Common methods of installing a muzzle brake include:

1. Boring Brake and welding it to the Front Sight Base.

2. Pulling the Front Sight Base, boring it, moving it back 1 inch, turning the barrel, and then threading the muzzle (a lot of work and technical expertise needed in this method.) But does end up with a threaded barrel and removable muzzle brake.

3. Pulling Front Sight Base, boring it, resetting it 1 inch back, and pinning on a bored muzzle brake. Danzig on the Saiga Forum will do the work and sells the kit. This ends up with a semi-permanant muzzle brake, and no treaded barrel. This is the most attractive option to me, since I don't see me swapping brakes out on most rifles. I'm having this done to my Saiga S-308-1 soon, and I'll post a pic.


BTW...

If you intend to mount a scope on your S-308, I HIGHLY recommend you going ahead and putting a Universal Cheek Rest on your buttstock-- especially if you are having it Pistol Grip Converted AND/OR you intend to use a Belarus PSOP scope on the rifle. Cheek Weld is terrible on a standard stock and PSOP without them.


All the best...

John



Edit: Typo Error

 

[poor_richard]

First, I would like to stated that I am somewhat new to much of this.

That said, based on some reading over at Saiga-12.com, it seems as if the 16" barrel produces a slight advantage in accuracy. Something to do with the harmonics of the AK action I believe. This is just speculation of what I read over there, so it could have something to do with the individual shooters. Does this make sense?

 

[geekWithA.45]

My understanding is that barrel harmonics have more to do w/ the ammo being shot in it than anything else.


The super summary of that story according to my handloading friends is that all barrels "whip" (exaggerated for visual image) a bit when fired, and what you want is ammo that will consistently exit the muzzle when the barrel is in its extreme state of whip in the same direction.

Finding that ammo is the result of a systematic program of trying various permutations and keeping careful notes as to the recipe and the outcome.

Once the recipe is found, it's a matter of consistently brewing that recipe.