SD Knife Practicality v. Street Fashion

[CWL]

While picking up some to-go food last weekend, I made some observations about the typical street-level hoods I would most likely encounter in an assault/robbery situation.

Modern street fashion has evolved to become very effective against knives. (makes sense.)

Street fashion seems to involve wearing layers of very loose but heavy denim jacket (sometimes padded) over a synthetic basketball/football jersey and another t-shirt, perhaps add a hoodie as well. The looseness combined with layers of various dense materials makes an extremely effective "armor" to entangle, catch, block and insulate against the typical slashing moves & thrusts I have studied in FMA. Even the zipper may be effective in reducing belly/abdominal strikes.

I think that most of the folders I carry would be rendered useless except for a solid thrust or only against the neck and face. Even small-medium fixed blades may not do very well here.

We have never addressed this in any MA classes, where we usually wear single-layer cotton t-shirts or Gis. My combinations, if used in the real world, may only result in shredded denim and a few superficial cuts to BG, while allowing BG to respond with a world of hurt.

Can anyone share suggestions on effective techniques & folders? I am thinking that billhook knives may be the most effective, but would like to hear all suggestions.

 

[Mandirigma]

We have never addressed this in any MA classes, where we usually wear single-layer cotton t-shirts or Gis. My combinations, if used in the real world, may only result in shredded denim and a few superficial cuts to BG, while allowing BG to respond with a world of hurt.

Bring it up with your instructor, its a valid training scenario.

Don't forget that even with your folders there is the punyo to use. Joints being the objective.

When I first started learning, my grandfather had a knife in one hand and his bare hand as the other. He asked me which hand I thought was more dangerous. Of course I said it was the hand with the knife. He chuckled and shook his head. The live hand is the more dangerous, it feeds the knife hand.

It took me years to understand what he meant. Your live hand isn't there just to block and disarm, its there to manipulate your opponent into a position where you can effectively strike, sometimes its a push, other times its a pull.

Use your live hand to feed your knife hand. Grab the garments, pull the BG to you (to get inside his line)and lift the clothes out of the way so you can get to your target.

If you can get a hockeystyle shirt-over-head tactic down, do it, blinded even temporarily creates an advantage to you. Hooded sweater? again blind by pulling over head or off to the side. The hood and pockets makes good handholds and depending on the material decent choke points (thinking hood here)

The great thing about current street fashion is that if anything is tucked in it'll just be a light "wifebeater" t-shirt. really ineffective against knife defense.

Baggy pants? step on them, while not as effective as pinning someone by stepping on thier foot it causes thier pants to fall. This leads to an almost instantaneous habitual reflex. On or both arms go down to grab the waistline and haul the pants back over thier butts.

gtg I'll add more later when I'm back.

 

[Pax Jordana]

Edit:

you know what, I'm gonna hold off on telling you you're wrong til I'm sure you're wrong

 

[hso]

If slashing doesn't work, the core of most FMA, then adopting Pekiti-Tirsia or a more western thrusting style may be called for. It may not get through the multiple layers every time, but it certainly will be more effective than slashing at 2 layers of denim with a soft sweat shirt between them.

 

[sixgunner455]

You know, I hadn't thought of this issue before in relation to knives as defensive tools. Guns, yes, as to how the clothing of the assailant may affect the effectiveness of the bullet after it passes through the clothing, but not knives.

In the case of someone with multiple loose layers, I am remembering a Civil War history I read some years ago. An anecdote related by an officer after an engagement to his friends as they teased him about the trouble he'd had with an enemy officer when they ended up in a sabre duel, he thoughtfully remarked, "that young man was an excellent fencer, much better than I, and would have easily killed me but for one thing: he forgot that a swordsman kills with the point, not the edge," or words to that effect.

This transfers to the question at hand: you may not want to kill that young local who's turning his life around, one wallet at a time, but if you have to go to your knife, you may want to remember the point, not the edge, is how an edged weapon penetrates. Slashes, except to certain points on the body, are primarily "only" painful and distracting, and if deflected by the clothing, of very limited effectiveness. The point, however, even on a 3" blade, is much more likely to cause a debilitating injury that will enable you to "win" with less danger to yourself.

 

[carpediem]

Poke. Pull. Repeat.

 

[Fosbery]

In the words of Brett Kayword: step 1, get wrist control. Now you can control where he goes. Step 2, pull out your gun.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM

In all seriousness, a small folder is never going to be much of a slashing tool in my opinion, with the exception of claw and karambit types, but these will be useless against leather/denim clad assailants. Better to jump in, stab, then run, than to engage in a 'knife fight'.

 

[CWL]

Good thing I come from a Judo background. Lots of clothing on BGs to work with. I haven't thought about stepping on the pants-good suggestion.

My thoughts are to go to a billhook knife. Perfect for ripping in knife-forward position and underhand grip as well. The hook can also be used underhanded to assist in throws and control tecniques -I can't imagine anyone being able to resist a technique if my strong hand is now a knife point.

Of course I won't be able to use thrusts though. I have given thought to Pikal techniques, but I have moved away from underhanded edge-in holds.

 

[Pax Jordana]

OK, feeling like a jerk, and chiming in for real this time.

What's gonna defeat all that clothing is the stab. Slashing would work better for limbs in your way (as the most clothing is on the torso) and exposed hands. Having never studied FMA, I'm not sure what kind of techniques you're bringing to the table, but unless you're packing a 2 inch blade and you stab him in the wallet, you should be able to get at least some penetration. Unless FMA is one of those tip-down, edge-in styles, in which case I have no idea and you're on your own

Leather, I can see being pretty effective. But denim? I'm gonna have to look into that. It's cotton, by jiminy. These aren't your grandfather's jeans, that take weeks to break in.

So you could theoretically get past it with stabbing, or if you must slash, use a serrated blade.

 

[MudCamper]

Yep - pierce, don't slash. And step on the pants! That's great! As for the clothing's armor value, well, I may be livin in the past with my leather jackets, but personally I think it's much better armor than all that cotton the bangers are wearing - especially my biker jackets...

 

[HiWayMan]

Use Pikal Methods. Good ripping action that helps negate all those layers.

 

[Mandirigma]

Pikal Methods

Pikal is "basically" holding the knife in an icepick style grip although its edge in. Unlike what a lot of people want to do and hold icepick with edges out. "so if I miss I can flare my wrist and still get a slash in"

It starts out as a stab, but not really going for deep tissue or vitals (though better if you can get them). You are targetting muscle tissue. Once in you shift your knife to where to tip is point at you, not perpendicular to the ground, just to create maximum cutting surface (still embeded into the muscle) and with your live hand push while pulling with the knife hand.

The idea is to cripple that particular muscle group.

What helps is the natural reaction to getting stabbed is to pull away and create distance. You can get your opponent to use thier energy to help you do this.

 

[hso]

Nice description!

 

[HiWayMan]

Re: Pikal

Can also be done with tip up edge in.

 

[JShirley]

Some Japanese systems (I'm sure other systems as well) targeted traditional joints and gaps in the armor, such as the ankle and forearm.

Even with baggy layers of cloth, there are still areas of the body that have shallower covering to penetrate to cause serious injury. Just something to think about.

 

[strambo]

The missing element here so far is bodyweight/power. I have seen lots of prison footage and arm strength-only stabs are very ineffecient. You should be lunging in with all your body weight behind the thrust so after he gets his aorta severed, he gets punched in the solar plexus and the wind knocked out of him when your hand slams into his torso.

Gangsta clothing isn't gonna stop all 190 lbs of me stepping through him with a knife in my hand and my arm strength as the icing on the cake at the end. An added bonus you get with all that force, is you will compress his body (like in CPR) and get an extra 2-3" of penetration. So, with a fully weighted strike you can get 5-6" penetration with a 3" knife. Even not considering that factor...and not considering clothing, you want to strike as hard as you can anyway just to ensure penetration past any dense muscle or bone deflection.

I mentioned "aorta" before...targeting is very important. It takes an awful long time to stab someone to death in the upper back or upper chest. Drop your targeting 4" and get heart (slightly left) or aorta (possibly top of liver) in the center. Drop another 3-4" and offset right or left and get spleen/liver in front, kidneys in back. Damaging highly vascular organs or arteries is what results in rapid blood loss. Out of the 60 some odd stabs it can take to shank an innmate to death...only a couple hit organs, but those are what got results.

In any case, do take this tip from the Aryan Brotherhood (please don't listen to any other life advice they have )...don't stop stabbing until he stops moving. I have a prison guard friend who saw an innmate get hot tea thrown in his face and stabbed multiple times...the attacker then stopped. The stab-ee then got up and beat the other guy into 3 hard weeks in the infirmary. Oh, the stab recipient survived too. Once you start, don't stop until they are non-functional and/or you can safely leave.