Self defense vs predatory animals?

[MCgunner]

I'd recommend a large slingshot made of surgical tubing, a huge container of peanut butter, and an ATV.

If attacked by a bear, sling the peanut butter as far as you can (some of those things can go 100 yards) in the direction you don't want to go. When the bear goes for the peanut butter, jump on the ATV and get the hell out of there.

I like those "messin' wih sasquatch" commercials.

 

[sumpnz]

A guy that I met working at Boeing in Everett claimed to have shot 3 cougars in self defense over probably 30+ years of deer and elk hunting experience. I can't confirm the stories, but I also don't have much of a reason to doubt him having gotten to know him over the course of a year.

Each time this happened he had a deer or elk down and the cat was most likely intending to steal the deer/elk. That coincides with other anecdotal stories of cougar encounters I've heard about, mostly second/third hand. The first incident occurred before OTC cougar tags were available, he reported it to G&F and they did a full investigation. They determined that the cougar was within 20 yards of him and airborne when it was shot.

Bottom line, in WA cougar and bear encounters are very rare, but it can and does happen and is most likely when you have a critter down. The hungrier the cats are, the more likely you are to have a problem.

Look into getting a cougar tag (and a bear tag) when you buy your license if you're worried about it. As long the predator in question is in season if you shoot one you don't have to justify yourself, and then you can also keep it. They're not very expensive, at least when bought as a combo with deer and elk tags (IIRC they add ~$11 to the bill). Doesn't help much if the hunting season for cougar/bear has closed and that happens though.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

I'd like to see your opinion after trying it while facing into a steady 25 MPH wind

I see this a lot on here, how bear spray is magically blown right back into your face by any wind over 1 mph. Not really what happens when you actually use it.

And even if it did, you're using it at extremely close range, against an animal with olfactory senses that are off the charts.

 

[tommyintx]

Well, I worry a lot more about predatory animals inside the loop or anywhere around Houston than I do in the mountains out west. My self defense gun is a 9mm.

ahahaha. i couldn't have said it better.
.45 for me though. XD with 13 round mag, and 230 grain hollowpoints. and i also know better than to try for head shots under duress. Aim for center mass, and pray they aren't on dope.

 

[ArmedBear]

I see this a lot on here, how bear spray is magically blown right back into your face by any wind over 1 mph. Not really what happens when you actually use it.

I haven't used it. The instructions say that it sprays a "cloud", not a stream.

If you don't think that a 25 MPH wind (common around here some parts of the year) will blow a cloud of pepper spray back into your face, I'd like to know how that would work.

 

[mcdonl]

IMO... just learning to hunt... there will be 10x the number of animals that see you vs. you seeing them. No offense. As you get better, and are to the point where you would have a higher likely hood of encounters you will be more comfortable.

Awesome to see new hunters... Ok... now my story...

I used to hunt with one of those nuts who HAD TO BE THE FIRST GUY IN... even if it meant GETTING to the stand 1 hour before sunrise. One time, we parked on the tote road, heading up on the ridge we were hunting and I went just a little ways and stopped and sat on the hillside up against a tree. About 40 minutes later I could hear something BIG coming up the hillside. I didn't realize I was on a game trail and I kept staring into the darkness and by time time I could make out what it was I was about 5 feet from a HUGE bull moose... he snorted and nodded a few times... I practically **** my pants and he went on his way.... lol....

so, it could happen but you should be OK

 

[ArmedBear]

just learning to hunt... there will be 10x the number of animals that see you vs. you seeing them. No offense.

LOL

After 20 years of experience, study, mentoring, and perhaps an MS in animal behavior, the ratio will drop to 9:1. The best hunters and most experienced field biologists I've ever spoken with still figure on something like 10:1, I think. Note that we're talking about predators, not herds of bison, here. Predators only get to eat when they can attack without being seen first, given that prey animals tend to be REALLY FAST.

 

[tactikel]

Good luck on your hunting! Be sure to obtain and read gun laws and hunting regulations for the states you will hunt. The 2 states I hunt have bans on concealed weapons (firearms and even knives over a certain blade length) while in the field. Understand ammo restrictions (it is illegal to posess slugs while hunting birds or buckshot while waterfowling for example). I'd opt for bear spray or bells to ward off a bear rather than a .44 mag.
This year while grouse hunting I walked within 20 feet of a black bear, he was half way up a tree and far more scared of me, than me of him!

 

[bad_aim_billy]

I haven't used it. The instructions say that it sprays a "cloud", not a stream.

The model I carry is part stream, part cloud, we've tested it. Certainly not a fire-extinguisher cloud, which might be part of the misnomer about bear spray. And I don't care how much spray comes back at me if it stops a charge.

 

[Gungnir]

And I don't care how much spray comes back at me if it stops a charge.

That sounds reasonable, except bear spray on a human can incapacitate you for about 10-15 minutes it might even kill you if you have a severe respiratory reaction to it (think getting a good face and lung full of CS gas), whereas the bear normally will bug out and recover in between 3-5 minutes, if it decides to come back in that time, or another comes along you're a chili dog.

Here's a link for a really short blast of the spray, and he was prepared for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gw78gLU6fQ

Now think about being downwind for the 6 second blast you're supposed to give...

Oh and one other thing Bears like bear spray when it's not shot at them http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm this guy from the USGS studied areas that had been dosed with pepper spray and found that bears like to come up and rub on it. Hmm incapacitated, tasty smell, angry bear, doesn't sound like a recipe for a long life.

Don't get me wrong in the right conditions Bear Spray works just fine, but under less than ideal conditions I don't trust my life to it.

 

[ArmedBear]

That sounds reasonable, except bear spray on a human can incapacitate you for about 10-15 minutes it might even kill you if you have a severe respiratory reaction to it

Bingo.

There's a video on YouTube of a polar bear who comes back after washing off the spray. Yes, the spray stopped the attack. But no, the spray didn't make the bear disappear. It came right back and stalked the human, with the intention of eating him. It was a hunting stalk, not a threat response attack.

Just like with a mugger or rapist, the purpose of the spray is so that you can get away. If you incapacitate yourself, you're screwed. Consider, of course, that pepper spray that will strongly discourage a bear, an order of magnitude tougher than a human if a Black Bear, and two orders if a Brownie, will utterly incapacitate a human.

And 6 seconds? Do you realize how long 6 seconds is when you're being attacked by a wild animal that can kill you with a single well-placed blow?

Don't get me wrong in the right conditions Bear Spray works just fine, but under less than ideal conditions I don't trust my life to it.

My thoughts, as well.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

That sounds reasonable, except bear spray on a human can incapacitate you for about 10-15 minutes

And in the .01% chance I ever actually had to use it, I would hope my adrenaline would be sufficient to limp away afterwards. I'd rather be messed up from pepper spray than dead, any day. But that's just me--I'm weird like that....

this guy from the USGS studied areas that had been dosed with pepper spray and found that bears like to come up and rub on it

Well I, nor anyone else I know, have ever gone around spraying bear spray wildly on the ground around our campsite. Good grief.

Yes, the spray stopped the attack

So it worked. What else is it supposed to do? Fix you breakfast?

And 6 seconds? Do you realize how long 6 seconds is when you're being attacked by a wild animal that can kill you with a single well-placed blow?

And how many people can successfully stop a bear charge with a handgun in 6 seconds? Not a large percentage. I'm under no delusions that I could turn a corner on a mother grizzly with cubs, calmly pull a handgun out, and fire 6 hits in 6 seconds. And as far as long guns, not feasible when hiking or camping, unless you're terrified of bears (which a lot of people on here seem to be) or an ironman triathlon runner who likes to carry 8 extra pounds at 6000 ft.

Overwhelming studies show bear spray works. Period. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Gungnir]

And in the .01% chance I ever actually had to use it

I live in Bear country in central Alaska, in all but the winter months I can pretty much bet on a daily basis that I'm going to see either a black or a grizz. Most of the time they're minding their own business as am I.

I would hope my adrenaline would be sufficient to limp away afterwards.

Hope is proven to be an unsuccessful strategy.

I'd rather be messed up from pepper spray than dead, any day. But that's just me--I'm weird like that....

I'd rather not be dead, rather than messed up by spray and then dead.

Well I, nor anyone else I know, have ever gone around spraying bear spray wildly on the ground around our campsite. Good grief.

However if you use spray you will get some on yourself, bears like it for 5 days. Other people do use it in this way, can you guarantee that anyone with you while out in bear country won't do that, and if they do can you guarantee that you'll know about it?

And how many people can successfully stop a bear charge with a handgun in 6 seconds? Not a large percentage. I'm under no delusions that I could turn a corner on a mother grizzly with cubs, calmly pull a handgun out, and fire 6 hits in 6 seconds. And as far as long guns, not feasible when hiking or camping, unless you're terrified of bears (which a lot of people on here seem to be) or an ironman triathlon runner who likes to carry 8 extra pounds at 6000 ft.

As I said, I live in bear country and always have an 870, a 338 Win Mag, or a 30-06 at hand, and I'm always carrying my 40S&W (no it won't likely kill the bear , but it'll give it a really bad day with hardpoints). Yes I've had to use them, yes, I hit, yes I can still talk to you about it and didn't lose any body parts, and no the ADF&G didn't run me off to jail for shooting the bear, I just needed to hand over the skin, claws and skull.

I'm not especially scared of bears, since as I mentioned earlier most of the time they mind their own business, and so do I, and I chose to live here, so I think it's my responsibility to give them an even break. But just like a mugger if they want a piece of me, then they're going to have to take it.

YMMV

 

[telkontar]

Without reading page 2 of the posts, know the animals and their habits. Bears will avoid you in most situations and if you are hunting, you should be aboe to avoid most problem situations.

 

[Cosmoline]

Heck with spray--just toss him the naga jolokia.

 

[mbt2001]

Why do conversations continue to do this here?? No, bear pepper spray isn't going to work 100% of the time in every conceivable scenario. Neither is anything else. You might shoot the bear and kill it, but end up getting fined $10,000 by the wardens... You might shoot the bear and get mauled or spray the bear and get it back in your face because a hurricane is hitting at that exact moment and die of strangulation because you have an allergic reaction to it...

In the meantime, it is a viable option to fend off bears and will not get you fined by the game department. Carry a piece if you can, for human predators and for bears in the extreme... If you can't, the pepper spray means you do not have to go outside naked.

FOR THE RECORD, the bear pepper spray is less potency than the "police" version and is documented to work well. Just saying...

The spray beats trying to grin the bear to death...

 

[moooose102]

basicly, if it is going to attack and/or eat you, you have a right to defend yourself. no matter if it is a cougar, or a man. but, you had better be able to at least present a believable story to the law enforcement. if they can see that the animal (by tracks and so forth) was in a position to attack you, and you had no other viable choice (like run) then you SHOULD be ok. but, just like a shooting a human, if there were other options open to you, you could be in a heap of trouble!