Shooting very old ammo.

[Ugly Sauce]

I was sighting in a Savage 24V-A in .30-30 today, and took my old box of "misc" cartridges to use them up and get the sights in the ball-park.

Some of the ammo was from the father-in-law's old stuff, and I'm pretty sure it's from the 1920's or earlier. Anyhow, had a Remington UMC and a RP case both rupture. One near the base where the solid portion meets the case, and one had five cracks about 1/4" long running from the shoulder up, but not all the way to the case mouth.

The one near the base was not a case-head separation, but more of a hole. That was the Remington UMC case, which was the older of the two. Also shot some old WW Silver Tips, they look fine.

Won't be shooting any more of that stuff. But it did get me sighted in. !!! I of course verified my zero with some new ammo.

 

[Axis II]

Let er rip! We found my buddies, grandfathers M1 Carbine buried in his attic with ammo from WW2. We fired a box of it and no issues.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Good to hear your fine. I wonder if the cases got week with age? Or the powder age caused it to produce more pressure?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Let er rip! We found my buddies, grandfathers M1 Carbine buried in his attic with ammo from WW2. We fired a box of it and no issues.

I have fired lots of WW2 and pre-WW2 military ammo with no problems. (Turk ammo being an exception) I don't believe split cases present any danger, although it seems like a case head separation could leak a lot of gas into the action. Having said that, I've had case head separations in the .303 British, and one in a .30-30, and they didn't blow any gas back. At least not that I could tell.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Good to hear your fine. I wonder if the cases got week with age? Or the powder age caused it to produce more pressure?

The rounds didn't feel any hotter than any others. Yes, I think they got brittle with age. Perhaps not the best alloy used at the time? Batch of sub-standard brass?

 

[Beck]

Ammo has the potential to last for 100 years. I've known people who've used ammo nearly that old. I've shot rounds from the 1940s, 60s, and 70s with no issues. But storage conditions make all the difference. Copper and brass deteriorate if not stored in cool, dry "Living environments." I went through quite a bit of circa late 1940s 30-06 in an M1903 Springfield years ago. No problems at all... it all went bang.

~ Beck

 

[Ugly Sauce]

You know what, this ammo did come out of a garage. No hang fires though.

 

[MutinousDoug]

I inherited a .30 ammo can of LC52 and 66 Carbine ammo when Dad passed his Carbine to me and still have 4-500 rounds of that. It shoots fine but leaves the brass a little more sooty than my reloads using W296 and H110.
The ammo my gun club used to issue for the carbine matches is LC1971-72 and shoots about the same as my 1952 stuff: dirty but adequate for 100yds.
I may have to start shooting the old stuff more often now that I can't seem to find carbine bullets. (And pulling carbine bullets from sealed, GI ammo is a monumental PITA.)

 

[N555]

Open one up see what the powder looks like.

 

[Megawatt maker]

I have some ww1 German 8mm ammo. It still works fine, got it with all my Granddads stuff, along with an Amberg G98. I think he brought it back from WW2. Have some Nazi issued stuff too, also works fine. that he also brought back. Both 8mm Mauser and 9mm luger. I also have some god awful old 303 British stuff. It shoots, can't say accurately. No idea how old it is...other than very old. Got some old 32 S&W stuff...from the teens or 1920s. I've fired a couple..but each case split.
Also have a bunch of Peters 22lr ammo thats older than dirt. I've never tried it, but I suspect it will go bang.

 

[Jim Watson]

Anyhow, had a Remington UMC and a RP case both rupture. One near the base where the solid portion meets the case, and one had five cracks about 1/4" long running from the shoulder up, but not all the way to the case mouth.

The hole sounds like Slamfired rotten powder eating its way out.
The cracks are "season cracks", age and airborne corrosives weakening the neck.

 

[trackskippy]

Powder can and does degrade, which in turn will degrade the brass. How the ammo was stored is usually the culprit, and it really doesn't have to be all that old.

I inherited reloads that were only maybe 15-20 years old that were stored in an unheated garage for that time in an area that was on the beach, and went from well below freezing in the winters, to well into the upper 90's in the summers and it was constantly humid. The brass, most all of it military 30-06, failed and the bullets could be pushed out of the necks sideways with your thumb.

The way I found out something was up was, I was shooting my M1 and a round would not chamber. When I pulled that round out, there was a neck from the previous round stuck on the bullet. Luckily, I was single loading them.

If you pull the bullets, and you see a blueish green corrosion on the bottom of it, you'd best shoot it up pretty quick, and figure the brass as scrap.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I have fired lots of WW2 and pre-WW2 military ammo with no problems. (Turk ammo being an exception) I don't believe split cases present any danger, although it seems like a case head separation could leak a lot of gas into the action. Having said that, I've had case head separations in the .303 British, and one in a .30-30, and they didn't blow any gas back. At least not that I could tell.

Yeah the turk 8mm (and some 30cal) suffers from improperly formed/annealed brass. The brass was probably bad the day it was made

 

[PapaG]

I had some really old 30-06 that was showing pressure signs. An old timer, and former army armorer suggested I run them into a seating die just enough (a few thousandths) to break any seal that may have formed. Problem gone.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I had some really old 30-06 that was showing pressure signs. An old timer, and former army armorer suggested I run them into a seating die just enough (a few thousandths) to break any seal that may have formed. Problem gone.

Perfect example of why you can't really read "pressure signs" on cases.

 

[PapaG]

Perfect example of why you can't really read "pressure signs" on cases.

? Hard lifting bolt handle, cratered primer works for me. After, all is smooth and good. Perceived recoil more normal also.

 

[trackskippy]

If you were having pressure issues I wouldn't shoot that ammo. Something is up there and its not worth the chance.

I seriously doubt that breaking a sealant seal on the bullet is going to change things, nor do I think its what was causing the pressure issues. Theres something else going on there.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I think it depends more on how and where it was stored than the age. Hot storage is not good for any gunpowder.

 

[someguy2800]

Can't believe @Slamfire hasn't found this thread yet!

 

[StrawHat]

I collected US carbines from the American Civil War. Had a bunch of them. Shot all of them, one shot or one magazine, with original ammunition. The Spencer ammunition cost me $21.00!!! All of it worked fine except one round of Gallagher ammunition. Not sure why more modern stuff would give you problems.

Kevin

 

[Jim Watson]

'Cause it uses that passing fad, smokeless powder. Chemically unstable.

 

[Slamfire]

Can't believe @Slamfire hasn't found this thread yet!

Been busy. I did write something recent on the problems of gunpowder deterioration. :

cause of case head separation

The basic problem with gunpowder is that its lifetime is highly variable. So yes, there is WW2 ammunition that won't blow up your gun, (not this stuff




but the vast majority of WW2 ammunition went bad decades ago. These charts are from a 1969 and 1970 Insensitive Munitions Symposium. It shows the munitions experts were testing WW2 ammunition, and that these lots of WW2 ammunition had gone bad, and were going to be de milled.







I thought this was a very interesting post by @brickeyee


Green corrision on the inside of loaded ammo

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...de-of-loaded-ammo.898092/page-2#post-12128069

30 Nov 2021

Green is usually copper corrosion.

Bullet jackets (AKA 'gilding metal') are NOT the exact same materiel as brass cases. There is significantly more copper in the bullet jackets. The slightest moisture (or other corrosive material) will create a primitive battery with tiny amounts of current flowing between the different alloys.

The acids used to make nitrocellulose (nitric and sulfuric) are never completely removed.

The tiny amounts remaining are one of the things that determines the lifetime of the nitrocellulose.

Wartime production often is left 'dirtier' than ammunition intended for long term storage.

Why waste expensive solvents when the stuff is very likely to be consumed within a shorter period.

Long term storage of nitrocellulose powder is done under water. Radford Army Ammunition Plant was a primary nitrocellulose facility built in the 1940s to support the war effort. Way back in the early 1980s you could still see the outlines of the wooden buildings used for long term storage of nitrocellulose. Each was a lightly built 'log cabin' style of constriction with a basement 'swimming pool' to hold water. The partially completed powder was placed in the basement room, and then submerged in water.

It was dangerous work..

Occasional explosions occurred all the way into the early 1988s from reprocessing. The old stuff was around 25% nitrocellulose. It was reprocessed to far higher level (closer to the mid 90%) to make solid rocket motors. Ejection seats used those rocket motors.

As an EE I had a few contract jobs to try and measure, and minimize, the explosion hazard. A 'cake' of 90+% nitrocellulose was about 16 inches in diameter and 8 inches thick.I do not remember the exact weight, but it was pushing near 100 pounds. We developed some measurement techniques that allowed for easier monitoring of the purity and relative danger.

There was not a lot left of the truck or driver when one went off accidentally during transport from one part of the factory to another.

You could hear the occasional boom in Blacksburg at Virginia Tech, a couple mountain ridges away. It sounded like remote thunder. My pager would go off a few minutes later. Time to go and figure out what the H happened.

I visited Clark Custom Guns in Princeton Louisiana. They are near Camp Minden, which is a Department of Defense de milling facility. The numbers for the amount of munitions that have to be demilled is mind boggling. The Department of Defense tests its munitions and propellants, and for gunpowder, remove the stuff when the amount of stabilizer is less than or equal to 20% of original content. The theory is, 20% stabilizer gives them seven years to demill before the gunpowder auto ignites. It is probably a bit risky when the stabilizer content is low single digits.




Anyway, the guys at Clark hear constant kabooms from deteriorated and unstable munitions going off in Camp Minden. This is a big data dump on some of the problems we know about at Camp Minden.


New Information: Bunker blast at Camp Minden

By USAHM-News on October 19, 2012

https://usahitman.com/nibbacm/


6 arrested in Camp Minden explosives investigation
http://www.fox8live.com/story/22637088/la-company-managers-indicted-in-explosives-case

Execs accused of improperly storing explosives at Camp Minden due in court

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/04/camp_minden_explosives_court.html

Camp Minden: From blast to possible burn
http://www.ktbs.com/story/28065933/camp-minden-from-blast-to-possible-burn

New Information: Bunker blast at Camp Minden

By USAHM-News on October 19, 2012

https://usahitman.com/nibbacm/

The following is statement from the Louisiana National Guard concerning the explosion at Camp Minden earlier this week. On Monday night the Camp Minden post security heard a loud sound which could have been a possible explosion. Subsequently, the post security physically surveyed the camp in accordance with established protocols and conferred with contractor tenants who stated that they were not able to confirm the origination of the sound.

Upon daylight on Tuesday morning, a Camp Minden tenant organization, Explo Inc., discovered that one of their storage areas had exploded and reported the incident to the Louisiana National Guard. Following this report, the Louisiana National Guard notified local authorities and the Louisiana State Police of the explosion in accordance with standard protocol.

The substance that exploded was a smokeless powder and does not pose a threat outside of Camp Minden. Explo is currently conducting clean-up operations of the site. The incident is under investigation by the LSP. The incident area is a restricted area and will remain off limits to anyone other than authorized individuals due to normal operational security and safety requirements. For questions concerning the investigation, please direct those to the Louisiana State Police.

For questions regarding the commercial operation, please direct those to Explo. For questions regarding the operations or details of the explosion, please direct those to Explo.

6 arrested in Camp Minden explosives investigation

http://www.fox8live.com/story/22637088/la-company-managers-indicted-in-explosives-case


This photo, released Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2012 by the Louisiana State Police, shows piles of explosive powder stored at the Camp Minden industrial site that officials say were improperly housed by a company. (LSP/AP Photo)

JEFF AMY
Associated Press
The president and at least two other executives of a Louisiana explosives recycling company were among six people arrested Tuesday in the investigation of how the material was stored.

The Explo Systems employees were indicted June 10 and allowed to turn themselves in. Each is free on $50,000 bond.

Each worker faces five felony charges - unlawful storage of explosives, reckless use of explosives, failure to obtain a magazine license, failure to properly mark explosive material and failure to keep accurate inventory.

All those charges except the inventory count carry sentences of five to 10 years in prison and fines of $5,000 to $20,000. The inventory charge carries a prison sentence of two to five years and a fine of $1,500 to $10,000.

Explo Systems had a multimillion-dollar military contract to dismantle propelling charges used to fire artillery rounds. The company operated on space leased at Camp Minden, a Louisiana National Guard installation in northwest Louisiana. An explosion last October led authorities to look more closely at Explo and its facility.

An investigator discovered millions of pounds of an improperly stored propellant called M6, leading to the evacuation of nearby Doyline, the town known as the backdrop for the TV series "True Blood."

Among those arrested Tuesday were 65-year-old Explo Systems President David Fincher of Burns, Tenn.; 57-year-old vice president David Smith of Winchester, Ky.; and 67-year-old vice president of operations William Terry Wright of Bossier City, La. Also arrested were 54-year-old inventory control manager Lionel Koons and 50-year-old plant engineer Todd Dietrich, both of Haughton, La., and 43-year-old quality service manager Michael Kile of Bossier City.

In addition, the men face five counts of conspiracy, one related to each of the charges.

The company was indicted on the same charges.

Lyn Lawrence, a defense lawyer for Smith, said he hadn't seen the specifics of the indictment and declined further comment. Lawyers for Wright and Fincher said they would plead not guilty.

"We're going to fight the charges," said Ron Micotto, a Shreveport, La., lawyer representing Fincher. He said Fincher's defense would likely echo a lawsuit Explo filed against the Louisiana State Police. The suit contends the material is not within the proper jurisdiction of the state police and that M6 was not explosive in the way it was stored.

Louisiana State Police officials stripped Explo Systems of its explosives license on May 20, but the company won it back in state court in Baton Rouge earlier this month when state district court Judge Kay Bates signed a restraining order against the state police. A hearing in that case was postponed Monday.

Defense attorneys for Koons, Dietrich and Kile could not immediately be reached for comment. The men are likely to be arraigned on July 29, lawyers said.

Authorities said the M6 should have been stored in certified magazines, sometimes called bunkers, but some of it was found in boxes stacked in buildings, packed into long corridors that connect the buildings or "hidden" among trees outside. Some of the containers were spilling open, authorities said.

Authorities feared any ignition, such as lightning or a brush fire, could set off a massive chain reaction that would race through the corridors and blow up multiple buildings, threatening Doyline. Its 800 residents were put under a voluntary evacuation order for several days in December.

State police monitored the movement of the material, which took months as some of it was sold to other companies and the Guard provided additional space.

More 10 million pounds of the material was eventually stored properly and Explo relinquished its keys to the magazines at the installation. Also, state police said, about 100,000 pounds of flammable solid material and 130,000 pounds of Tritonal were moved to proper storage locations.

The Army gave Explo a $2.9 million annual contract in March 2010 to dismantle up to 450,000 propelling charges a year.

At some point, the company ran out of storage room and in early 2012 asked to lease more space at the installation, the Guard said. The company was turned down because it was about $400,000 behind on rent.

Execs accused of improperly storing explosives at Camp Minden due in court

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/04/camp_minden_explosives_court.html

MINDEN -- A court hearing has been scheduled June 1 for the owners of a company accused of leaving more than 7,500 tons of improperly stored artillery propellant at a site leased from Camp Minden. A third Explo Systems Inc. executive is scheduled in court in August.

State District Judge Mike Craig will hear the case against David Fincher, 65, of Burns, Tennessee, and David Smith, 57, of Winchester, Kentucky, The Minden Press-Herald reported.

William Terry Wright, 59, of Bossier City is to be tried Aug. 3 before District Judge Mike Nerren.

The hearings were rescheduled because two defendants' attorneys couldn't make an April 6 date, District Attorney Schuyler Marvin said.

The later dates were chosen so those cases would be the only ones on the docket, he said.

Explo Systems, which leased space from the National Guard's industrial site at Camp Minden, abandoned the chemicals after going bankrupt in 2013. Louisiana State Police had found them in an investigation after an explosion in October 2012 in one of Explo's leased bunkers rattled homes, shattered windows 4 miles away in Minden and created a 7,000-foot mushroom cloud.

All three men have pleaded not guilty to unlawful storage of explosives, reckless use of explosives, failure to obtain magazine licenses, failure to properly mark explosive material, failure to keep accurate inventory and conspiracy to commit each of the crimes.

Marvin said the defendants have a number of pending motions, including one to suppress some evidence and another to move the trial because of extensive media coverage. Another, he said, asks for a bill of particulars -- a court document giving more specifics than a bill of information, which simply lists the counts on which a defendant is charged.

Since the state police investigation, the propellant has been properly stored in nearly 100 magazines, or bunkers, but the stability of the material remains unknown. Studies conducted by the U.S. Army and the Environmental Protection Agency report the instability of M6 becomes more dangerous every day it sits.

A committee of experts and military officials is considering 10 proposals for what the would-be contractors say would be safe destruction. The EPA created an uproar by saying open burning was the only way to get rid of it. Locals said that would create toxic fumes.

Camp Minden: From blast to possible burn
http://www.ktbs.com/story/28065933/camp-minden-from-blast-to-possible-burn

Late October 16, 2012, an explosion rattled homes and nerves all over north Louisiana.

"I could see this white cloud rising up and red balls of fire just kind of floating up," said Cecil Hatchett the day after.

It was a bunker at Camp Minden. A month long investigation found what authorities then said was more than a million pounds of improperly stored explosives.

The public was told it needed to evacuate so the explosives could be stored properly.

“We're going to encourage the people in Doyline to leave their residence because of the safety factor,” said Sheriff Gary Sexton of Webster Parish on November 28, 2012.

Moving all of the material took longer than expected and the amount of improperly stored explosive material grew to 6 million pounds.

Officials identified it as M-6 in early December 2012, and no one had seen the owners of the company held responsible, Explo Systems.

“It is disappointing because we do want to talk to them as part of our investigation,” said Lt. Julie Lewis with the Louisiana State Police on December 4, 2012.

The company's financial issues came to light after the clean up. Explo owed Camp Minden thousands of dollars in rent and back wages to its employees.

The amount of M-6 grew to 10 million pounds, and state lawmakers wanted answers from Explo systems executives. But they were no shows to a state legislature meeting in February 2013.

The company's license was revoked in May 2013, and the explosive material was turned over to the state national guard's protection.

“I anticipate moving forward with the criminal end,” said Bossier-Webster Parishes District Attorney Schuyler Marvin on May 22, 2013. “How many people, how many individuals or corporation involved I'm not a liberty to talk about that at this point, but I do anticipate criminal charges.”

Less than a month later, six Explo officials were indicted on five different charges including conspiracy. They are David Fincher, William Wright, Michael Kile, Lionel Koons, David Smith and Todd Dietrich.

The men turned themselves in a week later. All six plead not guilty at their arraignment.

In the midst of the criminal trial process, Explo Systems filed for bankruptcy in August of 2013, With claims they owed creditors almost $3 million.

And just a few days later a Koons and Dietrich changed their plea to guilty in exchange for their testimony against three of the company's top officials. Kile also change his plea in the coming months.

After the criminal investigation was over and the trials beginning, state law makers tried to figure out who would be responsible for all of this M-6, and who would foot the bill for the clean up.



“To have to take $20-25 million out of our limited resources, from law enforcement and everywhere else that's important, to clean up someone else's mess is not the best use of tax payer money,” said then State Representative Jeff Thompson on July 16, 2014.

State and local lawmakers were in talks with Louisiana's congressional delegation to get the Army to take responsibility for the material they brought to the station when it owned Camp Minden.

And it worked. After years of resistance, the Army agreed to pay $25 million towards the clean up. The method of how it will be destroyed was left up to the EPA.

“The only one I'm aware of is the open burn,” said Maj. Gen. Glenn Curtis of the Louisiana National Guard on October 23, 2014. “Now, I'm hearing that there are other places where incineration has been used but I have not seen in writing that they have approved any other process.”

People in the area did not like the idea of an open burn, but officials were saying that was the only option. It wasn't until a December 2014 meeting here at the Minden Civic Center that anyone knew any different. That's when Dr. Brian Salvatore stood up and gave facts as to why the open burn is dangerous.

“I asked, 'Did you monitor to see how much uncombusted DNT is going?' 'Oh no we couldn't.' I said, 'Why?' 'Oh it was too hot over there. We couldn't get close enough,'” Salvatore recounted of the meeting on January 2, 2015.

DNT, or dinitrotoluene, is just one of four chemicals that make up M-6, But Salvatore says it's the worst one to be released into the air because it is a known carcinogen. The other chemicals can cause birth defects and issues for people with asthma.

Salvatore's word woke people up and a grassroots effort began.

“We've formed a group called the ArkLaTex Clean Air Network, and we're calling for a safe disposal of these explosives,” said Frances Kelley with Louisiana Progress on January 6, 2015. “We're calling on our elected officials to take their leadership and ensure a safe disposal of these explosives.”

Thousands of people have jumped on board, and the efforts so far seemed to work. The EPA placed a 90-day delay of action on the current contract process of an open tray burn, and agreed to look at other means of disposal.

Rep. Gene Reynolds of Minden said at February 2, 2015 meeting at Doyline High School the public's passion and efforts to stop the open burn has made a difference.


An Explosive Crisis: EPA Pushes for Massive Munitions Burn at Louisiana's Camp Minden

https://truthout.org/articles/an-ex...ve-munitions-burn-at-louisiana-s-camp-minden/

Open Burns, Ill Winds

https://features.propublica.org/military-pollution/military-pollution-open-burns-radford-virginia/

Bombs in Our Backyard

https://projects.propublica.org/bombs/

https://www.propublica.org/series/bombs-in-our-backyard

All this fuss and feathers would not be happening if gunpowder was immortal and when it deteriorated, it turned benign.

 

[marvin02]

And for educational purposes only:

 

[Slamfire]

That guy is clueless about how gunpowder deteriorates. He just does not know anything besides cool and dry. It is all about "storage", and nothing to do with the breakdown of nitrocellulose. Gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound the day it leaves the factory. The shooter in the above video is very lucky his shotguns did not blow up in his face, with ammunition that old, stuff like that happens.

I used to collect blowup accounts, and got tired, so this dates from 2014, and probably most of the links are busted.

For those that think old ammo is still ok....
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/38539-those-think-old-ammo-still-ok-print.html

A buddy of mine took his Sig p220 .45 down the range with us the other weekend. He had some old winchester hollowpoints that looked like they had been buried for 30 years. With myself still being new to guns and shooting, i didnt think anything about it.

Well he took one shot and it blow up in his hand. Now he has shot numerous rounds through this gun without a problem, of course they were new. Anyway, noone was hurt but the sig. This is hte way the gun is stuck in. It will not budge. Id say its a nice new paperweight

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

I'm sighting in my Remington 700 BDL .270 / Nikon 3X9 BDC today, and I decided to rotate old stock ammo. In this case, brand new (20 years ago), 130 grain ammo by a well known US ammunition Company. I bought several boxes of this brand, same lot, back in the early 90's after I discovered how wonderful they worked on woodchucks.

So I'm firing my 2nd round... WHAM! My mild .270 rifle bellows and whacks me in the glasses, odd I thought, as my .270's never kick like that.

The bolt won't open. I mean it is JAMMED. So after 5 min of banging on the bolt with my hand (HARD),it opens Ok, now the bolt draws back hard and the brass feels like its WELDED to the bolt face. I had to use a leatherman tool to pry it out. Rim was damaged, blackened, primer floating around, etc. Bolt appeared ok (Thank the Good Lord for Remington's 3 rings of steel protecting me!), and after switching ammo and using newer stock, the rifle functioned and sighted in 100% perfect. Scared the hell out of me though! This was factory ammo too, not reloads.

Ok, so I called Remington (ammo was early 90's vintage 130 grain Rem bronze point). They only back their ammo for 10 years (expected shelf life according to Remington). Note* I kept this ammo in a cool, dry place, sealed in a US Military ammo can for the past 2 decades. I have ammo from the 50's and 60's that still shoots fine. I guess with gunpowder, it's like rolling dice.

So, I'm glad the rifle is a Remington, as it was strong enough to take the hit without any damage, otherwise it would be my dime (and hide). I had our armorer (LEO), check it out as well. The bolt face appears ok, and I pulled the firing pin, ok as well. Damn strong rifle.

That brass was warped near the rim, I hate to guess what the PSI was, I'm betting well over 80,000 PSI, given how stiff that bolt was to open.

If I can get a photo posted, I will. Now I have several boxes of old .270 ammo to dispose of, as I'm not going to shoot it through my cherished 700 BDL anymore. At least the brass is still good and my right hand is still attached to my arm!
Time to go out and stock up on .270's!!!

Picher; Yes, bore was / is like a mirror. The rifle is a MINT early 80's BDL 700. No rust or pitting. She is one sexy rifle, it was love at first sight...

The high gloss wood and rich, deep blue steel.... MMmmmmm!!!!

It was close to 90 on Sunday in Maine, and humid. The ammo has been stored correctly, but, after all, it HAS been 20 years or so. I know my knees are not the same as they were 2 decades ago, so I guess I can't expect the ammo to fair any better. It just caught me off guard, as I stock up on (and shoot), old ammo, and NEVER had any issue. I guess I need to rotate my supply more often...

HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/90285-Gun-Blown-up

Hello gang i was just wondering if any of you guys have ever blown up a gun while shooting. I had the unfortunate luck of blowing up an HK-91 back around 1989. Me and a buddy of mine were buying cases of mil surplus from a company in ohio at the time in 1000 rd. cases. We had gotten a few cases from said company and never had any issues. Well the last case we got from them was from brazil cbc i believe it was. He called me and said he was having jamming issues with this ammo in his sar-48 bush gun. I told him well i'll go out with you and run some through my 91 it'll eat anything. Well the third round out of the 91 "BOOM" pretty scary it was.

I think you can have or get a bad round or lot of ammo with any manufacturer. That being said the ammo that blew my 91 up was military surplus from brazil. Thats the problem with mil surplus its put onto the market because its deemed not worthy of use for the military of said country.

So you get some good some bad you take your chances. But when your setting off small explosions with each trigger pull in your weapon anything can happen at any time with any manufacturers product.

Just be sure to wear eye and ear protection and good gloves are'nt a bad idea either. "**** HAPPENS" you know, don't you just love that saying.

Be safe and have a great weekend.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21886

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM


'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:

I picked up some surplus ammo a couple of years ago and had a couple of hang fires. The hammer would drop and a second later the rifle would discharge.

After that happened a couple of times, I decided I wasn't going to shoot that stuff any more. So I took the ammo apart, thinking I'd at least salvage the brass. After I'd pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder, I tried chucking the primed cases in a vice and then hit the primers with a pin punch and a hammer. I found that some of the primers would "pop" but others would just sizzle and smoke. I'm pretty sure those were my hang fires. It was an interesting experiment.

The last surplus ammo I had looked so bad that I never fired any of it. Like you, I took it apart. The powder was clumped together. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion. I decapped all the brass, burned the primers and powder outside when burning rubbish, and sold the brass and bullets to a scrap company. Recouped a very small amount of initial price. That was the last time I got fooled on surplus ammo crap.

My guess is that most of the foreign countries that are selling surplus goods to the USA, don't care much about how they handle or store the items, as long as it gets on the shipping container and they pocket the purchase price, they are happy. Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." It especially applies to surplus goods that have a shelf life. Where was it stored? How was it stored? What temperature? Subjected to water or salt air? Exposed to a structure fire? How was it transported? Etc. etc...too many unanswered questions. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is too good to be true.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7756780&postcount=6

Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.

Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.


http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

Catastrophic Failure

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43897-Catastrophic-Failure

Had a bad experience a week ago. Went to the range to test fire some handloads through a Springfield M1 and ultimately it blew up.

Details: Rifle - M1 Garand, Springfield manufacture receiver (1942) rebarreled in1947.
Ammo: 3-rounds. Reloaded - full-length sized once fired Federal brass, 163 grain mechanically pulled surplus bullet, Winchester Large Rifle primers, 46.5 grains of IMR4895 powder. Powder was dispensed/weighed using RCBS Chargemaster system calibrated immediately before use. Brass was checked for OA length and was within specs. prior to loading. Bullets were seated to crimping groove but not crimped.

Third round fired and rifle disintegrated through magazine well area.

Later analysis of rifle indicates bolt face fracture and case head failure. Lower front of bolt face sheared off around ejector hole causing passageway for hot gases and fragments to enter magazine well area and blow out stock and triggerguard floorplate. Receiver held and bolt frozen in place. Bolt has been removed and shows fracturing of both locking lugs as well as longitudinal fracture back from ejector hole. Extractor has backed out. Last round/fractured brass still stuck in chamber.

Post 151

Original loads were:

1) Primer seating depth was checked by visual and finger feel.
2) The original powder was old - still in metal can and starting to show brown dust (on retrospect).
3) Pulled bullets were GI AP.

HXP at Perry . . .


http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=115939

HXP 77 was the culprit. I won't shoot that stuff. A whole bunch of heavy bolt handle lifts in the 03 matches when it was issued at Perry. I have fired a lot of HXP 70, 72 & 73 with no issues at all, 03's and M1's.


Tombguard, What Ceresco is implying is that while HXP 77 ammo exhibited frequent and sometimes severe issues (excessive bolt lift force, dismounted op rods, duds, hangfires, etc.) there is the concern that other lots will have the same issues but with perhaps lesser frequency. If a manufacturing process doesn't have robust QC practices, more issues are lurking out there like snakes in the grass. I am not saying that you should avoid HXP ammo - I'm just saying that one should be aware that systemically the issues might extend beyond HXP 77 ammo


In the 2007 Perry matches it was '88 dated ammo that gave a lot of 03A3 fits on opening. I keep the saved round I had in rapids beside the silver medal I earned with 29 rounds. Believe me when I tell you it was locking those bolts up TIGHT. (As in roll out of position and beat them open.)

Stiff Bolt Handle on SC 03a3

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=92269&highlight=high+pressure+greek

Took my SC 03a3 to the range a week ago, shooting fairly good groups at 100yds (~2MOA) with unsorted HXP. Had a problem though - occasionally the bolt handle would be VERY difficult to lift open. Never had that before with new production ammo, other sessions with HXP, and never had a problem when dry-firing (snap caps, etc). Didn't break anything evident, and everything APPEARS to function correctly. The brass all looks like I expect (There is some minor pitting in the chamber which shows on the brass, but does not effect extraction), it just felt like I needed a hammer or a crow bar to lift the bolt handle sometimes (but not always). Any ideas as to what is going wrong


Typical HXP problem. It will often be hard to chamber some rounds as well. I had 3 saved rounds in 2006 at the Western Games 1903 match when round 7 could not be extracted from the chamber and no one had a BFH handy. A wooden mallet later helped extract the round. That was in a pristine M1903 Remington with a perfect chamber. All other ammo I feed it functions perfectly. I have a 1903A3 that also has issues with HXP. About 10-20% of some lots are very long in the shoulder. I have a couple rounds that won't chamber in a 1903 at all. It almost looks like I put a No-Go gage in the chamber.


If it is only when you shoot HXP new ammo that is your problem and your answer. It's a problem that has existed with a great many bolt guns since the very first day that CMP began selling HXP ammo and has been much discussed in this forum and others for several years (and see, even today). It was a common complaint among shooters for years at the regional CMP Games and the Nationals when CMP was issuing HXP as the required ammo to use. As I stated before, in 2006, if you walked the line in every relay of the 1903 match you would see shooters having to slap bolts closed and struggle to get bolts open. Many saved rounds in rapid fire were the result and the reason for the many complaints for several years.

I doubt there is a single thing wrong with your rifle or anyone's rifle that is experiencing this problem with HXP in bolt guns. If other ammo feeds and extracts without problems you have the answer already. The long and short of it

.....no pun intended....is the ammo, not the rifle. HXP brass is some of the greatest re-loadable brass out there but, it often sucks the first time around through a bolt gun. Nature of the beast.

Chilean 75 kaboom on IMBEL


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142685

Jeter's right,.....****ty brass. '75 Chilean is notorious for blowing up rifles. This one was freshly built, in spec and headspaced(fortunately not mine). It took approximately 60 rounds to find the 'bad' one. Shooter was relatively unharmed; just a few nicks and cuts. Probably has a world class flinch now. Barrel and bolt looked OK, carrier was not recovered(as in 'no one could find it'). I would not want to be in the way of a carrier that was departing the area at such a speed as to become lost.

*Note* Do not fire Chilean '75.


I wasn't present at the festivities, so I don't have pics of the barrel, etc. I was told by my gunsmith that the barrel was used in the rebuild on another new receiver, as was the bolt, so those parts were undamaged. The extractor was gone of course.

The Chilean '75 has brittle brass that tends to let go, dumping full pressure into the action. I've seen several FALs, HK91's and MG42's destroyed by this ammunition. The picture below(bad as it is)is of a different case,......not the case that destroyed the Imbel pictured above. It did destroy an FAL and I was present at this event. Pretty much the same but without the destruction of the receiver ring; receiver was bulged open at the magwell and the magazine bulged and blown out. Bolt and carrier remained in the rifle, but the topcover was blown off along with the extractor. Again, barrel

There are people out there who think they are immortal and indestructible. They do risky things, and when they survive, it just reinforces their self image of immortality and indestructibility. So, take into account human nature and the five laws of human stupidity.

 

[Archie]

I was sighting in a Savage 24V-A in .30-30 today, and took my old box of "misc" cartridges to use them up and get the sights in the ball-park.

Some of the ammo was from the father-in-law's old stuff, and I'm pretty sure it's from the 1920's or earlier. Anyhow, had a Remington UMC and a RP case both rupture. One near the base where the solid portion meets the case, and one had five cracks about 1/4" long running from the shoulder up, but not all the way to the case mouth.

The one near the base was not a case-head separation, but more of a hole. That was the Remington UMC case, which was the older of the two. Also shot some old WW Silver Tips, they look fine.

Won't be shooting any more of that stuff. But it did get me sighted in. !!! I of course verified my zero with some new ammo.

You do not trust the remainder, for whatever reason. Don't shoot it. New ammo is available, or fresher cases for reloading.

But do NOT throw the 'old' ammo away. Look on some cartridge collector sites first and see if anyone wants some as collectables. Much like finding your grandfather's old, more or less abandoned model A Ford in storage or the barn.