Shot the World Class 1858 today.

[K.A.T.]

I took the 1858 in the backyard today and set up at 25 yds, 25 grains of fffg Goex, .454 speer. The CCI # 10's were tight, #11's loose, so I ran a #11 pinched with no problems. I used a lubepill between the powder and ball, it worked great with no problems. This gun grouped as well as my 1860 Colt, had no fliers at all. There is a problem with the bolt stricking the leading edge of the cylinder notch, it has started to dent the side of the notch. The bolt is released too soon and hitting the cylinder before the notch is completely lined up. I could send it back to Uberti, but if this is easy to correct I had rather do it myself than ship my gun out. What causes this guys, can I correct this problem myself? Will a Remington cap fit better?

 

[Jamie C.]

K.A.T., my Uberti 1858 was doing the same thing with the bolt... smacking the edge of the notch.

I pulled the bolt out and very slightly shortened the end of the "leg" that the cam on the hammer engages.

Now it drops the bolt beside the notch, not on the edge of it.

It's not hard to do, but go slow. It's an easy fix.

Somewhere around here there's a thread with pics of exactly what you need to file, but I haven't been able to find it again yet.


J.C.

 

[brentn]

Kat you should read my thread about the hand and spring I posted yesterday. Its the same principle as the 1858

 

[Jamie C.]

Adjusting the hand in either a Colt or Remington copy only changes how far around the cylinder is or is not pushed. Adjusting the length of the bolt leg that interacts with the cam on the hammer changes when in that cycle the bolt is dropped.

If it's too long, the bolt will fall on the edge of the bolt notch. If it's too short, the bolt will fall in between the bolt notches at some point. ( Shorter equals closer to the notch it just left. )

Now I gotta go find that thread with the pics of this stuff...


J.C.

 

[K.A.T.]

Bolt hitting edge of notch

Hi brentn, I read your thread and even copied it and put it in my file today. I gave that a try and the notch lined up perfect. It seems that the bolt is released to early letting it smack the cylinder just before the notch is in place. I think the leg of the bolt was shorten to much from the factory releaseing the bolt just a hair too early. Seems the only way to stop it from making the dent in the side of the notch is to shorten it a little more so it has more of the cylinder under it when it hits making it harder to dent the side of the notch.The bolt will ride the cylinder, then drop in the notch when it is in place. Or get a new bolt and try to time it right, I can't put back on the leg what the factory removed. All ideas are welcome guys lets hear them.

 

[Jamie C.]

K.A.T., the bolt isn't supposed to fall exactly in the notch as the chamber lines up with the barrel. It should drop a little early and "skid" into the notch. ( You could time it so it did land exactly in the notch, but it wouldn't stay that way for long, due to wear, and you'd have to cock the gun slowly, to insure the cylinder didn't try to "over-spin" past the notch. )

Take a look at a Colt SAA "Peacemaker".. real or clone. See those little "scallops" in the cylinder notches that a Remington doesn't have? That's where you want your bolt to land.... just a bit before the notch it's self.

BTW... I can't find the thread I'm looking for. Either Mec, Old Fuff, or maybe Old Dragoon posted pics here a short while ago on how to time out this stuff, but I'll be damned if I can find them again. Anybody remember what I'm talking about?

J.C.

 

[mike101]

"Will a Remington cap fit better?"

I've never had a CCI cap fit properly on anything. Never had a problem with Remingtons. No pinching required.

 

[K.A.T.]

O.K. Jamie C I fully understand what you are saying now. I will wait to see if someone comes up with the pictures to show me where to file at. I think I know what to do, but I don't want to mess it up. Lets see if the other guys can find the pictures.

 

[Jamie C.]

K.A.T., if nobody can find 'em, I'll try and get a few pics of my own.

Problem is, my camera skills aren't up to the standard of whoever posted the other pics. ( I'm thinking it was Mec... )

No matter what, though, if you'll take your gun apart, and hold the hammer and bolt together, relative to how they sit in the frame, I think you'll see how they work together, and what you need to do. It really is a simple thing.
Just be careful not to file off too much metal... that stuff's tough to get to grow back.

J.C.

 

[Tommygunn]

See those little "scallops" in the cylinder notches that a Remington doesn't have?

Those are called "anticipation notches" FYI

 

[Jamie C.]

Thanks, Tommy... I couldn't for the life of me remember what they're called.


J.C.

 

[Old Fuff]

Right now I'm pressed for time, but I'll try to find the thread concerning the New Model Remington that earlier posts mentioned. It primarily had to do with disassembly and reassembly of the revolver, and MEC added some great pictures.

Anyway, correctly timing the lockwork so that battering the cylinder bolt notches is reduced doesn't involve one part, and you have to look at the overall picture. My impression of the World Class series of Uberti reproductions is that most of the difference has to do with cosmetics, such as engraving, rather then internal fitting.

A complete explanation of how to time an action takes a book, not a post - or at least a short one. The original 19th century guns were set up so that the back of the hammer hit the backstrap at the same time that the trigger engaged the full-cock notch. This eliminated most of the shock that is otherwise transferred to the hand, and sometimes to the bolt/cylinder notches that is causing a lot of the current problems under discussion.

More later...

 

[gunboat57]

I started a thread on the timing of my 1860 Army which had the bolt rising too late and battering the edges of the notches. There were some good photos from mec in that thread. Do a search on this title: 1860 Timing Adjustment. I think I started it on May 11.

 

[Jamie C.]

Gunboat57: YES! That's the thread!

Here: 1860 Timing Adjustment

I thought I remembered it being about the 1858. Oh well... makes no difference, since the procedure is exactly the same; same part, and same place on the part, to be shortened.

Thanks.


J.C.

 

[K.A.T.]

Thanks Guys, That is what I needed. I have installed the wire spring in my Colt 1860. I tried one like it in the 1858 it is way too short, does anyone make one for the 1858? I'm going to shorten the bolt leg, I'm also going to slim down the mainspring some,it is real strong, I compared yesterday to a pietta, this one is alot stronger.

 

[brentn]

Huh, my timing seemed to be all in the hand and spring, length of the hand to be exact, but reading this I can see that both play an important part. I just never messed with the bolt at all.
I have a feeling that once I start shooting my pietta a little bit more, i'm going to have to adjust the bolt timing as well...
Well at least I know what to do, that pic in the 1860 thread is great, gives you an idea of what to do.

thanks.

 

[K.A.T.]

1858 bolt leg

I filed the bolt leg and now have the bolt dropping beside the cylinder notch instead of right on the edge of it. This will stop it from denting the side of the notch. The bolt head was shaped with a sharp slant to one side causing only a small part of the bolt to hit the cylinder. I took part of the slope off, not all of it. Seems to me the smaller area of the bolt head hitting the cylinder would help cause it to make a dent. I would like to replace the spring with one not as strong, I tried the wire spring it was too short. I have a second generation Colt 1851 that I have not shot yet, I noticed it was doing the same thing, so I shortened the leg on it also. It now hits in the anticipation notch. The bolt head on it also was slanted real sharp to one side.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah... Oh boy!!!

You need to stop and learn a lot more about what you're doing. If you look closely at the frame you'll notice the the ball on the bolt (the part of the bolt that sticks up and locks the cylinder) is off-center in both revolvers. Because of this, and the fact that the cylinder has a round cross section, the top of the ball is supposed to be slanted. If you flatten that slant you will reduces that part of the bolt that locks into the notch on one side. In adjusting a bolt there are a number of surfaces you may work on, depending on what you are trying too do. But that slant on the top of the ball should never be touched.

 

[K.A.T.]

I didn't remove enough to do any harm, it still locks up fine. I was wondering why it was this way. Thanks for the info., I'll ask all the right questions next time before taking action.

 

[mike101]

So, what do you think of the gun otherwise (fit and finish, etc.)?

 

[K.A.T.]

Fit & Finish

I don't think the extra money buys anything but the engraving on the gun. I had to work on the bolt leg. The trigger guard did not fit right ,the front of the trigger guard had to be pulled up tight with the screw,putting alot of stress on the screw. I corrected this by using black inletting grease to see where the high spot was at, then removed it by sanding it off. Now it fits fine. My biggest complaint is about the frame,with the cylinder removed the inside of the frame was not really finished out. It had alot of ruff file marks that I had to remove by using sand paper and working my way up to the fine grit. I didn't take all of them out, but I got it to an acceptable level since it is not really seen, but I was disapointed with this area.I think the main spring is too strong, I compared it to a Pietta at Bass Pro and this Uberti is alot stronger. I am going to reduce it some.The gun really looks nice, the grips fit great, the engraving looks great, I like the Stainless Steel. The gun shoots well,groups great,about 2" to the left and 6" low, at 25 yds. There is plenty of front sight to remove to correct the shooting low part, and the sight is dovetailed so the side to side can be corrected also. I am pleased with the gun,and glad I have it. One dealer wanting $580,another said he could get one for $480, I paid $390 including shipping,considering the price I'm not complaining.I will buy one of the Walkers if I can find one priced right.

 

[Old Dragoon]

K.A.T.,
When you reduce the spring, don't make it into a dogbone shape, do sharpen the edges from the top side center out to the edges like a knife edge. do this from the hammer roller marks down to the thick part that rides in the frame. You don't want the knife edge to be sharp, but just ground down to about 1/2 the thickness This lightens the spring with out weakening it like making a dogbone shape does.

 

[K.A.T.]

Thanks, Old Dragoon, I will go slow not to remove too much.I appreciate your help.