Shotgun is being displaced from bedside duty

[the naked prophet]

I'm keeping the AK loaded with rapidly expanding JSP ammo, which is supposed to penetrate less wallboard than pistol ammo or 00 buck, according to someone's tests (don't remember whose tests, the ammo oracle maybe?).

I'm not particularly concerned with overpenetration, as the field of fire would put any thru-wall shots into a wooded hill about 200 yards away, or if for some reason I have to leave my bedroom, the shots would go through the brick side walls of the house and the next houses, or out the back wall of the house and over the rear neighbors houses.

Anyway, there is a lot of discussion on this thread. I hadn't expected quite this much... I'm kinda interested in the whole training issue (train in what you're comfortable with to get really good vs. train in what you aren't good at to become adequate across the board).

 

[buzz_knox]

I'm kinda interested in the whole training issue (train in what you're comfortable with to get really good vs. train in what you aren't good at to become adequate across the board).

You need to get training in any system you are likely to use, in order to figure out where you'll get the best return on your training investment. After you figure out what works best for you (M4gery vs AK, autoloading shotgun vs pump, etc), invest a significant portion of your training time and budget on that system. However, it is still worthwhile to crosstrain as you'll develop valuable skill sets across the board, you'll be able to determine if something else works better for you at that point, and you'll be ready if the only weapon at hand is something that isn't your primary interest but is one you have trigger time on.

 

[sinistr]

i was wondering about muzzle flash/noise in this situation.whenever the conversation of rifles for hd this subject never seems to come up. i fired a .223 in a two lane range one time(it was about the size of an average room)with low light and no hearing protection. my vision was impaired and i was in some serious pain(after 2 rounds).with the sg or pistol it was tolerable.i have never taken defensive carbine course or read much about the matter ,is there something im missing here?

 

[buzz_knox]

Muzzle flash is often ammunition dependent. If you are using surplus military ammunition or higher grade commercial/LE, there should be retardants in the powder that reduce the muzzle flash. I've done a night carbine course and shot a 12 gauge in a dimly lit range. The shotgun was brighter than some of the carbines.

As for the muzzle report, none of them will be good for your ears. The only question is which one will give you the optimum chance to survive and seek an aural specialist to work on the damage.

 

[fireflyfather]

I switched from a shotgun to a carbine years ago. 30 rounds versus 7 and the ability to reload fast. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I can't imagine using more than 30 rounds for HD in anything other than an entire mob attacking my home. If that 30 round mag is your security blanket, fine, but IMHO, a bedroom gun is meant for burglars, not complete social breakdown.

Train with the weapon you think you will plan on using. That usually means training with the weapon that meets minimum requirements for your purpose (either carbine or SG in this case), AND you feel the most comfortable with.

 

[Navy87Guy]

Why do you think you do better with the AK? Is it because of the ergonomics? The red dot sight? Or is it just psychological?

I agree with all the recommendations for training. Get some and see if it makes a difference. Suarez International teaches a variety of courses around the country, including Shotgun Fighting.

If you think it's the ergonomics or the sight on the AK that makes the difference, then go for the Saiga S12. You can barely tell the difference between it and an AK -- except for the size of the magazine.



(That's the S12 on the bottom)

Jim

 

[the naked prophet]

One of the reasons I picked the AK is because my chosen HD load is both quieter and has less flash than any of the potential HD loads I could find for the shotgun. Seriously, my AK is quieter than any of my handguns (minus a .22) and all my centerfire rifles and shotguns.

I don't really want 30 rounds, but I'd use a 20 if I could find one. I like both the ergonomics and the sighting/shooting method better on the AK. When I was a kid, I shot thousands and thousands of BBs at the blackbirds in my back yard (they got into the garden and pestered the dog). First time I picked up a rifle, I was a natural. Not so for the shotgun. It's comforting to hold, but seeing my performance was not exactly comforting. I could get along if I had to, but I feel much more capable with the rifle. I can hit COM at 5 yards from the hip easily, and out to 25 yards I don't even have to use the sight when shooting from the shoulder (I can leave the red dot turned off and still get COM hits fairly easily). The shotgun just doesn't work that well for me.

 

[littlegator]

From Correia: At the end of the day, you're the one that is going to have to defend yourself, not any of us opinionated folks on the internet.

Oh that does it...what the heck am I paying you people for anyway? I'm going to start taking down the stickers in my front window that state, "Protected by THR members". I guess I'll just have to protect myself from here on out. Now where did I put that money for the Benelli M4 I wanted...

 

[mgregg85]

A pistol gripped 870 with a full magazine tube and a trigger lock sits next to my bed with my surefire on the table next to my bed with my XD45. In the event of a home invasion I would pocket the xd and unlock the 870, you cannot argue with a shotgun's firepower and I feel very confident with that shotgun.

 

[GigaBuist]

You won't get any crap from me on the matter. I'm quite happy keeping whatever gun I've been shooting the most ready for HD. Lately thats one of my 870's. In times past it's been a Marlin 1894C and for a spell I kept a 12 gauge Coach gun under the bed.

Caliber, magazine capacity, etc are all moot points if you can't remember where all the controls are in the dead of the night under stress.

 

[Navy87Guy]

One of the reasons I picked the AK is because my chosen HD load is both quieter and has less flash than any of the potential HD loads I could find for the shotgun. Seriously, my AK is quieter than any of my handguns (minus a .22) and all my centerfire rifles and shotguns.

I'm not sure I would have considered quietness a virtue for my HD rounds. I want the bad guy's buddies to know that they just lost one of their own, and it gives other family/neighbors a chance to call 911 if I didn't to. Flash I can sort of understand - but not noise.

I still say try a converted Saiga -- I think you'd be surprised at how your performance improves with an AK-like set up.

Jim

 

[the naked prophet]

It's still plenty loud - just quieter than others which might split my eardrums with a single shot. My wife's 14 inch AR with a very loud muzzle brake will split your eardrums when you're wearing plugs and muffs. A glock 19 is painfully loud when wearing only earplugs. But the AK is comfortable to fire with only earplugs.

 

[Diggers]

Humm I know ALOT of people use their AK's or AR's as their main HD weapon but it has always seemed a little odd to me to use a rifle as an IN YOUR HOUSE defensive weapon. Sure it would work but these guns are made for long range work …. you know, its a RIFLE.

I wouldn't use a 30-30 in my house for HD and an AK round has about the same ballistics as a 30-30.

And 20 or 30 rounds?? Really? (who’s army is coming for you?) You WILL have a pretty hard time explaining that to the Judge.

A shot gun makes better sense for a few reasons. First, has plenty of power close up. Also it is a short range weapon thus more easily seen as a defensive weapon. Shot guns don’t have the same negative image as an AK or AR does.

On top of all that at 10 or 15 FEET (HD ranges) ONE load of buck shot may actually do more damage than ONE AK or AR round, ending the fight faster.