SIG quality control - Does it affect the classic P22x series?

[Paincakesx]

Hello all,

I recently purchased a SIG P229 in 9mm. I have fired only 100 rounds through it so far, during which it has performed flawlessly. It is, as far as I know, a newer American made SIG. (frame says SIG-Sauer inc. Exter-NH-USA) While cleaning the gun, everything seemed to look fine. I currently have a P228 which I've had for a few months (got the P229 for a few reasons which are a bit complicated), and the P229 shot pretty much the same as the P228. The finish looks fine too. The slide rattles a little bit when I shake it (not a lot, the slide just seems to fit a tiny bit loosely on the frame - is this normal?). The P228 doesn't do this. My worry is that as more rounds go through it, any potential problems will show up.

I've read numerous complaints as to the quality of newer SIG guns. I was aware of these complaints, but upon reading further, it appears to be more serious than I thought. Therefore, I have a few questions:

1. Are these problems as bad as people make them out to be, or are they overblown and only affect a relatively few guns.

2. Do these problems mainly affect newer SIG guns such as the P250 and GSR, or do they also affect the classic guns such as the P226 and P229.

3. What are the estimated odds (obviously nothing for certain, just a guess) as to how likely it is that a newly purchased SIG P229 will be messed up? Don't need precise numbers, just an educated guess.

The gun I have is a plain SIG P229 with a rail - not one of the "special" ones (Equinox, E2 etc) and doesn't have a beaver-tail or anything like that. 100 rounds isn't much, and I plan to go through a good 150 or tomorrow at the range to get a better idea as to its reliability. How many would a good amount be to judge whether or not a gun is likely to be a lemon? It was a very expensive gun and I'd be disappointed to say the least if it was defective in some way.

 

[Blue68f100]

With the internet things spread fast when it's bad news. Like with any mfg you will get a problem gun if there mass produced. If the trigger is smooth in DA, if your got the DA/SA and not the DAK you got a good one. I would check closely and ever knock off all sharp edges on the slide ends. Due to rocking motion front to back this is where the gouging can accour. Use grease on the slide, Sigs like to be run wet and you will have no problems. QC problems are across the board with the bean counter trying to save a penny any where he can. Sigs in general are very well built guns and are very reliable. Most of the problems accour when new owners lube the gun like Glocks or 1911's. Sigs require more lube/grease on the slide. If you have not gone to http://www.sigforum.com/ and browse the Armorer section. There are several guides for maintenance and how to smooth one up if you chose to do so.

I'm not sold on the 250 and there was a lot of problems when they came out beside dealers not having the different size grip frames and panels to adj the fit. But I'm not in to the tupperware guns.

Some slides are looser fit than others but does not impact accuracy way the barrel locks to the slide. In most cases the rattle is the magazine, seating the bullets to the back normally quiets them.

Enjoy your new gun, I have near 15k through my 229 and has been 100% reliable with anything I want to feed it.

 

[rellascout]

IMHO the W. German and post reunification German guns are superior to the current offers which are made in the US at their Exeter Plant. They contain less MIM or no MIM at all. There is Less bling, better QC and stamped slide vs milled slides for the classic P series guns. The P229 has always had a milled stainless steel slide.

Since Cohen took over Sig they have pened every single design in the entire Classic P series design. They replaced every single part that they could get away with with a MIM part. They have changed parts and configurations to achieve parts commonality to achieve lower production costs. They do this so that can hit a price point. They need to stay competitive with the market and make a profit. However P series prices have still gone up. The P229 is sort of a classic series pistol. It is not as old as the P226/P230/P225/P220 or even the P228 but most consider it a classic P series guns. Most P229s were made in the US. For a time they got the parts from Germany and assembled them here but quickly migrated to milling slides and producing frames in the US. It was their first major production gun made in the US IIRC.

Every single new design dating back to the Mosquito... 556... P250...GSR... P238 all have had production and performance issues. They have rushed product to market and let the consumer do the QC. The notable exception is the P290. I have not heard about any QC issues with this one but to be honest I am not really interested so I have not been following it that closely.

They are using the "Ford Pinto" mindset. It will be cheaper to fix the issues that come up vs make it right the first time. This is because they understand that the most Sig pistols will not see more than 5,000 rounds in its lifetime. Most people shoot their pistols less than 1,000 rounds a year.

This is not your dads Sig Sauer. They are in the race to the production cost bottom in search of bigger profits. This is great if you are a stock holder. It is not so great as a consumer. They are running the Kimber playbook. MIM parts, lots of cosmetic changes to the same gun, grips, finish, trigger config etc... which creates multiple models of the same thing.

Now to answer your 3 questions directly. Sigs are still high quality pistols and the odds are highly in your favor of getting one that runs well as long as you avoid the P238 and the Mosquito.

#1 The Sig rattle is nothing to worry about. Some rattle some don't the pistol will be more accurate and if taken care of last longer than you will even with extensive use.

#2 QC issues effect everything that Sig puts out. It does not matter if it is a classic P series gun or a new design like the P290.

#3 Even with all of that said if I had to put a number on it I would say your odds of getting a 100% functional pistol out of Sig Sauer these days is in the 99% range. This does not mean there will not be cosmetic or slight finishing flaws but the gun will run and more likely be more accurate than you are. If you want to take into account cosmetics, fit and finish I would drop it to 95%.

For any new sig shooter I highly recommond reading the lubrication recommendations of Flork (Formerly of Gray Guns) who works for Apex tactical now. A link can be found on the Sig forum in his signature. Sig does a horrible job of informing the customer how to properly lube and protect their guns. As the other poster said they like to run wet and greasing the rails is key to helpping them reach the 25,000+ round count.

Excuse me while I put on my flame suit because I know what comes next everytime I post this opinion.

 

[wgsigs]

Most P229s were made in the US. For a time they got the parts from Germany and assembled them here but quickly migrated to milling slides and producing frames in the US. It was their first major production gun made in the US IIRC.

I think all of the early P229s were made from German-made frames and barrels and American-made (I believe it was Ruger or a subsidiary) milled stainless steel slides in Exeter. Even the German-made P229s - not very many made it to the U.S. as far as I can tell - were made with U.S. slides for a while.

I couldn't remember if it was the P239 or the P229 that was the first. I agree the P229 is in the mode of the classic SIG and the only "new" (1994?) one I currently own.

 

[wbwanzer]

Don't borrow trouble. If you like the gun and it has presented no problem so far, then enjoy your new pistol. Don't look for trouble.

 

[wgsigs]

BTW I forgot to mention I originally had a 2008 .40 S&W P229R that I put several hundred rounds through and it performed flawlessly. I also bought a used Sig .357 SIG barrel and a Bar-Sto 9mm conversion barrel for it and proceeded to put a few hundred rounds through them without a hiccup. I wound up selling the gun back to the dealer after a year though because I found an early P229 without the rails, which I dislike and don't need, and it has had no failures, too.

I believe my P229R may have had a slight rattle, but I can't remember. However, from my experience I would not hesitate to buy a new P229. I can't speak to the new P226s and P220s though as I have German versions of them.

 

[MCMXI]

I've read numerous complaints as to the quality of newer SIG guns. I was aware of these complaints, but upon reading further, it appears to be more serious than I thought.

I've read that too but I like the new guns and the old ones, in fact, I prefer the newer ones in many ways and I have three pre '95 and five post '00 with three from '10. Sure, there are three or maybe four MIM parts in the latest offerings but they're not breaking based on what I've read. Regardless, try finding any manufacturer that isn't using MIM these days ... for under $1,000 that is. As for the slide and frame fit being "loose", the frame is anodiized aluminum so it'd better be a bit loose unless you want to wear through the anodizing in a few hundred rounds. Keep the rails greased for range use, matches or classes and lightly oiled for CC. Don't forget that these are defensive, combat pistols, not target pistols. But saying that, I've always found SIGs to be very accurate.

There are certain SIG products that I won't even consider buying, but any P220, P225 or P239 is fair game. I've never owned a P226, P228 or P229 because I like single stack SIGs, but somehow I doubt that I'd be disappointed with either of them, even if they were made last week.

I do agree with rellascout that SIG has lost its way. They make/sell too many products and this is hurting them. They should stick with what they know, do it well and have excellent customer service and all would be good. When I bought my first SIG in '93, there were so few models to choose from and every one was a known "winner". It was easy back then to make a good decision.

 

[Lonestar49]

Not to worry IMO

...

So, the frames are now made in USA.. acc, to your guns frame. Ok

I recently purchased a SIG P229 in 9mm. I have fired only 100 rounds through it so far, during which it has performed flawlessly. It is, as far as I know, a newer American made SIG. (frame says SIG-Sauer inc. Exter-NH-USA) While cleaning the gun, everything seemed to look fine. I currently have a P228 which I've had for a few months (got the P229 for a few reasons which are a bit complicated), and the P229 shot pretty much the same as the P228. The finish looks fine too. The slide rattles a little bit when I shake it (not a lot, the slide just seems to fit a tiny bit loosely on the frame - is this normal?). The P228 doesn't do this. My worry is that as more rounds go through it, any potential problems will show up.

...

My frame says same SS/Exter/USA but under it, reads "Frame made in Germany" but your gun and mine have common traits as -

Bought my first Sig, a P229R CT 9mm, CT being w/laser grips.. nearly 6yrs ago.

From the start, some 5yrs ago, my slide, to frame, fit has a touch of even looseness, unlike any of my P229 non-railed 40's, my P228n/r 9mm, P225n/r 9mm or my P220R/45 that followed throughout the last 5yrs.

All are tight, or "tighter" , no rattle if shaken, and the 40's have aprox 7k rounds thru them, no issues, none..

No "issues" with any of my Sigs and, like you, I occasionally think, "why the rattles on the 229R 9mm.. ?

P228 9mm and P229R CT 9mm



229R CT/228 9mms


But, now, thru, 5845 flawless/most accurate rounds, it remains the_same, looks brand new, as seen above (pics taken 2 months ago) with the same, even, slide to frame tiny looseness and anytime, every-time, I think it could effect accuracy, the laser says/shows, spot-on accurate which is aprox 10% of the total "so very accurate" rounds shot to-date..

The laser doesn't lie, nor do my factory Sig 3-dot night sights when "I" sight and shoot - "correctly"..

As long as this "fact" remains "on-gong" the gun stays in my small herd and I have no doubts as to the guns accuracy with or without the laser and is why it is my home gun for my wife..

They're both ~ Keepers ~ and both rattle a tiny bit brand new and with age



Ls

 

[Paincakesx]

Well, just got back from the range where I fired 300 rounds through it (30 of which were hollowpoints). Not one single malfunction.

The only strange thing was that the slide would occasionally get caught when I tried to do a brass check and require significantly more force to pull the slide back - racking it several times quickly seemed to alleviate the situation. After inspecting the gun now after coming home, the the gun appears to be back to normal. Perhaps it was just because the barrel was hot/dirty? (not sure if anybody else has experienced this). I was shooting Blazer 9mm ammo.

All that said, the gun to my relief shot flawlessly and has yet to malfunction after about 400 rounds.

 

[MJ_ATL]

Short version: You should be fine. Keep shooting it, keep it clean, and keep it lubricated. Somewhere after 8000 rounds you'll need to have some springs changed.

Long version:

(begin long rambling post... and I'll preface by saying I primarily shoot Sigs)

You shouldn't have any trouble with the P229, generally any issue I've had with a Sig Sauer has been early in its life. I have a P229SCT that had a broken firing pin positioning pin from the dealer... not sure if it was dealer caused or poor QC. After getting it fixed I've put 9000+ rounds through it without an issue until this week with some light strikes on Blazer ammo. Replaced the springs, cleaned it thouroghly (stripped completely to frame and slide), and the pistol is back to 100% function. I also had an older P239 that had problems feeding certain ammo, a feed ramp polish by the factory fixed that problem. My P226SCT has about 5000 rounds through it and has been perfect from day one.

Your problem racking the slide could have been dirt and/or lack of lubrication. Sigs like to run wet and by wet I mean more oil/grease than you probably think you should use. There are a multitude of opinions out there about which lubricant is best and how to best lubricate - the important thing is to lubricate. Flork says grease, my Sig certified armorer says no grease (he has a 25K+ round Sig he's only used RemOil on). I will say that some of the teflon oils and greases tend to collect more dirt than anything else I've used. Make your own decision based on the information out there.

I do agree that the marketing and product folks at Sig have gone a bit wacky with all the wierd finishes (Rainbow, really?!?) and the tacti-cool offerings. These are a distraction for them. It used to be you could get a black Sig, a stainless Sig, or a two tone. I really like the SAS Gen2 for carry but did we really need a Blackwater edition, the Extreme, the TacOps, Combat or SCT? I'll admit to buying the SCT but only b/c getting the TruGlo front sight that way was cheaper than upgrading later - I don't use the higher capacity magazines except at the range.

It would appear that QC has suffered in the past years but it could be industry wide - I've had issues with other brands as well. Annecdotally though, it seems to match the number of issues other makers are having (even Glock - my neighbor has had 2 new Glocks with issues, they fixed them and the guns run perfectly now). Rellascout is correct in the observation about the new products they aren't quite right for the first year or so... and Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito.

One thing to be aware of, there is at least one person on the customer support desk at Sig that can be less than personable. I think he's the source of the majority of the claims that CS at Sig is bad. I've dealt with him a couple of times and walked away getting my issue resolved but not feeling good about it.

<joining rellascout in the flame retardant suit>

 

[Dogguy]

I only own newer SIGs--two P229s. One had a defective trigger that showed up after about 30 rounds at the first range session. The other was 100% right out of the box. For the one with the defect, SIG customer service took care of it immediately and that gun is now running perfectly.

I have nothing negative to say about SIG.

Some of those horror stories about SIG quality likely have some validity but, in my opinion, many of them are overblown. There are a lot of longtime SIG enthusiasts out there who are hacked off because SIG has made changes in the guns since the 1970s. There are a lot of new SIG owners who are unfamiliar with firearms in general. Both groups can get bent out of shape over points I might consider minor. Both groups tend to be vocal.

If your P229 is running good now, it's unlikely to have any issues in the future. Normal use and wear causes all guns to need occasional maintenance or repair. Keep the rails greased and the action lubricated, clean it after you shoot it, have springs and parts subject to normal wear replaced periodically and you'll probably get tired of using it before you use it up.

I do agree with MJ_ATL. SIG's marketing is embarrassing. About on a par with the pink and lavender anodizing and pink grip panels from other gun makers. I don't do cute real well. And QC issues exist with just about all the other gun makers I'm acquainted with. I've had problems with a new Glock and a couple of new S&W revolvers in recent years as well as one of my SIGs. Seems like everyone is rushing firearms into production to meet the demand increases.

 

[Paincakesx]

Well, I think I'm pretty much satisfied with my P229 now. Have about 700 rounds through it (took it shooting today with 4 others where we shot both handguns and did some clay pidgeons with shotguns) and not one single malfunction. The frame rails don't really show much more wear than normal.

I am personally very pleased with the P229 model in general as well. It is a little heavier than its brother, the P228, but also shoots with what I feel is less felt recoil (and the P228 by no means has a lot of recoil). It feels good and shoots well - the one thing I DO like on the P228 though is the trigger. That said, the P229 trigger isn't too bad in my opinion, and overallI definitely enjoy it thus far. Not sure if any problems will develop in the future, but would it be safe to say that if I can shoot 700 rounds without any problems at all, that the gun should be fine in the long run provided it is maintained properly?