Sinfully big, honkin', gorgeous bullets, for long-range rifle shooting...

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Gewehr98

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Preacherman, if you find it in your heart, can you send a word to the man upstairs and ask his forgiveness? I usually am out and about doing tactical (almost a dirty word these days) and F-Class shooting, with various and sundry 6.5-06, .308/7.62mm NATO, and .30-06 rigs, trying my best to stay inside 10" at 1000 yards. Success does indeed occur, but it appears I have developed a sinfully wicked itch, and it grows stronger.

I have been seduced, and my heart is heavy. I feel I have forsaken my other long-range rifles, and don't know when I'll return to them. I've been playing with a certain Ruger #1 falling block rifle in .45-70, as part of a grander scheme. I've left a sturdy and faithful wife for the new mistress in my life, to the point of putting a down payment on a new Sharps 1874 rifle with 32" barrel, double set triggers, and vernier sights. You know, the rifle that the Indians said would "Shoot today, kill tomorrow".

How could I? I'm lucky in that I'm not too far from Orlando, FL. There's an older Canadian gentleman who winters here (we call 'em Snowbirds), and he's a master millwright. Not only that, but he's also a record holder for 1000 yard blackpowder silhouette and benchrest up there in Canada. Mr. Marcel Lacelle uses his skills to swage and machine what could arguably be called the finest long-range .459" bullets out there, and he sells them to goofy folks like me.

I've had the pleasure of using his 450gr swaged bullets from a couple years ago. My wife and I lube them with Crisco (sometimes the butter-flavored variety) and load them on top of a full case of Goex FFg, a pinch of WW231 against the primer, and a WonderWad. Accuracy out of my Ruger #1S was downright wonderful, .45 caliber holes making a cloverleaf at 100 yards once the smoke cleared and I could see through the spotting scope again. Other cast .458-.459" bullets just didn't shoot as well, Marcel was definitely on to something.

So last week I checked in with a local reloading outfitter in Melbourne, getting more primers and so forth. On the shelf were baggies of Marcel's bullets, and some decidedly pointy-looking ones at that, more so than the 450gr flat-nosed versions I had been working with before! So I brought two varieties of these gorgeous 500gr Spitzers home, some "naked", and some with a gas check and copper nose cap. I've since learned that the latter bullets have caused Marcel some trouble, they work so well in long-range competition that they've been banned by the match authorities.

Ok, gang, enough jabbering, what do they look like?

4570bullets.gif

From left to right, there's a 405gr cast generic bullet loaded up, that same cast bullet by itself, a Beartooth hard (extremely) cast 405gr flat nose w/gas check, a Marcel 450gr swaged flatnose (my previous favorite), a Lyman Whitworth-style 480gr flatnose, a Marcel 500gr spitzer, a Marcel 500gr gas checked copper nose spitzer, and the plain 500gr Marcel spitzer seated at the front driving band in .45-70 brass.

If you'll notice, most of the bullets shown have fairly ample lube grooves. In fact, the Lyman Whitworth bullet is almost completely covered in lube grooves on the entirety of the bullet's bearing surface. That's probably a good thing for a Whitworth muzzle loader, but not for a .45-70 blackpowder cartridge, because if I seated the bullet to cover all the lube grooves, I'd lose a goodly amount of powder capacity to the intruding bullet. I'd not recommend the 480gr Lyman bullet for .45-70 blackpowder loads for just that reason. Now, if you are running a .45-90, .45-110, or .45-120, that may be just your bullet.

Even the 450gr Marcel flatnose, when seated to cover the top lube groove, intrudes into the case more than the generic 405gr and BearTooth 405gr bullets. I drop-tubed my powder to offset the lesser case capacity, but I knew my velocities were suffering. My Ruger #1 is also cursed with a very short barrel throat, so seating some of the bullets further out was not an option, they engaged the rifling almost immediately and prevented the cartridge from being chambered and the breechblock raised. Bummer!

Now take a look at the Marcel 500gr spitzer, particularly the lube grooves, and the forward driving band. Yup, they basically match the length of the generic 405gr cast bullets, the extra 95gr of bullet weight appear to be forward in the longer nose ogive. Now I have a spitzer bullet, with a better BC, more throw-weight, and it allows a greater powder column behind it, while still chambering in my short-throated Ruger #1!

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. So come November 11th, while Mrs. G-98 is "saving me money" at the retail sales downtown, I will be at the range, running those beautiful big bullets to at least 200 yards. If they work as well as I think they will, when my Sharps 1874 arrives, I'll be ready to take advantage of the 10" longer barrel. My smokeless centerfire rifles may just have to stay in their respective safes for some time to come. :D

Here's a variety of Marcel's swaged long-range competition bullets:

963.jpg

Here's the man himself testing out some bullets at 300 yards:

marcellacelle.gif
 
I know nothing about BLack powder lead shooting, all of my cast lead rifle shooting has been in 'lesser' and smokeless cartridge so I have lots of questions:

1. What does the copper nose cap on the bullet on the far righ in the picture do?

2. Do the gas checks do anything? For what I know, Black powder rifles use faily low pressures, or are those for smokeless loads?

3. I noted that you had concerns about the lube grooves being below the case mouth. Is that something that is a concern for shooting black powder, or are you more concerned about the potential for using the loads for hunting? FWIW- for 30-06, 8x57, 6.5x55, and .308 I seat out so that the bullet engraves into the rifling, though that's not an option with a falling block. I've never been concerned with the lube grooves as I keep the cartridges in a clean plastic box.

4. With shooting black powder, do you need to clean between shots?
 
The copper cap shifts the center of gravity to the rear while maintaining the aerodynamic shape.

David
 
Veri niiice! I am currently looking at buying or trading for a cadet rifle from west point that my neighbor has. It is chambered in 45-70, and i have really enjoyed shooting it. I was surprised that it didnt kick as bad i thought it would have.:D
 
Ahhh, Ruger No. 1. What a beauty! That sight looks serious. This is a cool thread, I learned a lot in just a few minutes. Nice Reptar action figure. :D
 
Gewehr - nice write up :) - I still enjoy my #1 but have not experimented as you have, and have to say - your shoulder must be very forgiving too :D. Does this even beat flying these days?!!

Very nice rear sight there - I have to cheat and go scoped because my eyes just won't do well enough with open sights any more.

That is one great selection of bullets. BTW - can you give me a # of the mould for .459 405 with gas check? I am using plain base right now but probably pushing them too hard and gas check would be good. Are your checks Lyman or Hornady - also any # for those?

Here's my scoped #1 -


ruger-no1-86-s.jpg
 
I'd stick with the 500gr. flat point for dealing with Reptar. He can be a bit tough to knock down.:p Don't let the sandals and fancy shirt fool ya. He's a mean SOB.
 
Thanks for the info.

they work so well in long-range competition that they've been banned by the match authorities

Under what pretense?

John
 
Gewehr, I discussed your problem with the Man Upstairs. He is most sympathetic to your moral dilemma, and proposes the following solution. Donate all of your non-black-powder rifles to the Church (in the person of myself, of course - who else?), and all will be forgiven.

(Spoken with tongue firmly in cheek, and ducking potential lightning bolts through the ceiling...) :evil:
 
The Reptar and Eddie figures were a freebie.

The space in front of my 8-port ethernet switch is the only clean spot in my office/lab. (Isn't that terrible? I really need to clean house around here!) Reptar was my online name in Unreal and Unreal Tournament, to the point I was sent the little dude in reverence after thrashing the other players. Eddie just reminds me of my government job some days.

P95Carry,

Recoil is a totally different beast when you're stuffing the cases with charcoal instead of Reloder #7. Think along the lines of a big slow push vs. a sharp painful jab. It's where physics takes a different track, too, because you've got "barrel time" to figure into your point of hold vs. point of impact. (The bullet spends so much time in the barrel that the muzzle moves before the bullet departs downrange, to a much greater degree than smokeless loads...)

I kinda quit casting bullets when I moved to Florida from California. It was cheaper for me to buy other people's cast and swaged bullets than me sitting there and sucking lead fumes. California had some cool winters with good breezes when I could fire up the casting pot and crank out bullets. Those types of days are fewer and further between down here, save for the hurricanes, and then my focus isn't on casting bullets. I still have all sorts of bullet metal ingots, the pots, moulds, and accessories, but they stay boxed up now.

Likewise, I've seriously throttled back my flying hours these days, because I'm too darned busy doing staff work, clearing the suspenses on my desk, and hammering through my outprocessing/retirement checklist. In the not-too-distant future, my partners in crime will greet me on the ramp with a fire hose and bottle of champagne, I'm that close to being done.

So those bullets you see lined up above are all purchased, none were cast by me. The plain base 405gr flatnose came from Spacecoast Bullets in Melbourne, FL. They're cast from a Lyman #2 alloy. That 405gr gas-checked BearTooth came from www.beartoothbullets.com with a Brinell hardness of 21+, right there near linotype in hardness. They now sell a 525gr PileDriver bullet for the .45-70, and this link shows an American Bison that dropped like a sack of rocks when hit with it from a 34" Sharps at 1680fps.

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

Another good source for gas-checked 45-70 bullets is a place that should be familiar to Oleg and crew, Western Bullets in Missoula, Montana.

http://www.westernbullet.com/cbip/cbip.html

The gas check does a wonderful job in eliminating barrel leading, particularly when using smokeless loads and sending bullets up towards 2000 fps.

In blackpowder loads, the gas check tends to act as a bore scraper, cleaning out the fouling of the previous round and presenting a very uniform bullet base as the bullet departs the barrel crown.

Fouling isn't always the problem people make it out to be. Marcel, myself, and many others actually cheat a bit, and put a pinch of smokeless pistol powder on top of the primer before drop-tubing the whole charcoal payload into the case. Others use magnum rifle primers. The net effect is to have a hotter flame front, which promotes a more complete charcoal burn. The fouling in my Ruger #1 is more consistent with a light fly ash than hard crusty asphalt speed bumps.

Jshirley,

Near as I can tell, the copper-nosed spitzers were banned because of their copper nose and gas check, they weren't "primitive" enough to satisfy the rulemakers, much like SASS rules state their rifles must have exposed hammers, so no Martini or Ruger #1 or #3 rifles.

That's not me in the photo, that's Marcel Lacelle testing those spitzer heavyweights of his at 300 yards using a Ruger #1 and diopter rear sight. My own Ruger #1 wears a 1.5-4.5x Swift, and the 32" Sharps I put on layaway wears an Axtell-style long range rear vernier, and globe/spirit level front sight.

1197.jpg

Preacherman, thanks for putting in the good words for me. I've actually organized and put my centerfire smokeless dies and components in their respective cubbyholes, but I'm sure once I get this .45 caliber long range stuff worked out of my system, I'll go back to the smallbores. Although I've already done a bunch of the long-range centerfire stuff that Zak and crew post about here, I've still got to play with it again, and then there's Bogie's benchrest game. :D

BTW, if anybody's interested in a bunch of 480gr Lyman Whitworth .459" bullets, drop me a PM. Unless I get a .45-90 or .45-120, I doubt I'll ever shoot them, and I have about 100 of 'em...
 
It's been a year and a half since I took receipt of the Sharps.

I've expanded my bullet selection considerably since the original post. I doubt I could get all the styles and weights together on the same picture, actually. I've learned some "do's", and some "don'ts" along the way. Those 485gr Whitworths with the bazillion lube grooves? They love being pushed along by Unique or 2400, especially from the Ruger #1. They're also a pussycat in the 32" Sharps, but the loud "Crack", lack of smoke, and different POI will remind you that you're not running BP anymore. ;)

I bought a buttload of the Marcel 550gr spitzers. The third lube groove is a very nice thing to have. I ran out of lube with some of the two-groove bullets, and that is a real pain in the posterior when you're stuck cleaning lead out of the last few inches of a 32" barrel. Bullet lube is your friend, and it's best to have too much vs. too little. With the heavier and longer bullet, it's a real trick getting 70gr of Goex Cartridge into the case and then seating that 550gr slug, but it can be done. (Hint - Montana Precision Swaging powder compression die!) The effort is well worth it, the big rifle rolls gently while delivering wonderful accuracy. No whitetail or bison have been taken yet, but they will, trust me!

I met a gentleman on eBay who casts some absolutely gorgeous .45-70 bullets:

http://myworld.ebay.com/burnhambill/

In fact, I may sell my bullet casting tools and supplies soon, there's such a nice variety of affordable bullets being made out there by the cottage industries.

P95, have you loaded your Whitworth 485s yet? :D
 
P95, have you loaded your Whitworth 485s yet?

(Hangs head in shame) .... Darin - I humbly confess as yet no - I haven't.

However - light at end of tunnel possibly ........ in as much as, my supply of ''regular'' 45-70 rounds I use in BFR is all but used and I really do have to restock on those so - if I get to brewing a 100 or so of those will try and load the others for use in the #1.

I know you mentioned some load data but forget right now what it was, other than 2400 did a nice job, and I have plenty of that. Maybe there is something in this thread - must check.

Reloading has become way too often these days a - soon, tomorrow, next week ............... and the months pile up!!

Best regards.
 
well, because you have an Iron maiden toy, I will forgive you. But tell me, is it shadowing in the pic, or are those spitzers showing us a canted point on those bullets?
 
It's the lighting.

I've got about 1000 of those bullets, haven't seen a canted nose on one yet. My own pictures aren't much better. :D

I got to thinking about old Marcel and how he makes them. If I didn't mention it before, he swages them from lead wire. I simply cannot imagine a semi truck showing up, and you have to get your forklift out of the shop to go retrieve your big spool of nearly 0.50" diameter lead wire. :eek:
 
I can see the calls for bravo-seirra on me now. I was at the local range a few months back and guy next to me was shooting a custom .50 cal. We got to talking and he started telling me about his custom .93 cal. I guess I looked skeptical so he went to his car and got some ammo (all custom) and a couple of pictures. Some guy in OH made it for him and he claimed to have to register it with BATF. I wish I had taken a couple of pictures of the ammo, it was impressive stuff- solid brass bullets machined by a local guy in SE PA. 900+ gr if remember correctly.
 
hmm a Sharps would be a nice thing to have.:D

*** though lol!,I get distracted by the dinosaur lol!

though,your bullets would probably takeout a dino no problem:p
 
I shoot a 535 gr Lyman Postell bullet in my 1885 Browning BPCR using Soule tang sights. I need to fire up the pot and make some more bullets but have been shooting my "new" 1911 Swiss Schmidt-Rubin with Furter adjustable sights. Last Sunday, only the second time out with this one got four shots into 1.5" before throwing a flyer( my fault). Never shot that good with open sights before.
 
Jkingrph, ain't that a kick in the pants?

My smokeless centerfire guns still languish in their respective gun safes, save for the HD weapons and a successful deer outing last fall with one of my Kalashnikovs. I'm so bitten by the BP cartridge bug that I'm working on a Remington Rolling Block project in either .38-55 or .40-65. :D
 
Might have to look into these. I've got a Springfield Trapdoor that just got cleared by a gunsmith. Want to shoot it at least once before it becomes my first (and hopefully only) "collector piece"
 
Go for it, Jay!

Have your Trapdoor's bore slugged, you may want to get oversized bullets to fit. As a young adult, my dad took a lot of whitetail with his Trapdoor. He's been on me to find him another one, some 60 years later. :D

If you're not big on the BP cartridge thing, XMP5744 and lighter loads of Unique or 2400 are quite safe for the old Trapdoor action.
 
Gewerh98: That XMP5744 is some nice stuff. Has a good sweet smell much like the 22LR cartridges. I also have found 2400 to be good for light loads esp in my '06 and 35 Rem .
 
I agree.

The third bullet from the right in my first picture above, 485gr Whitworth with the bazillion lube grooves, absolutely loves about 24gr of Alliant 2400 in the .45-70 case. It delivers light recoil, excellent accuracy, and a sharp "Crack". No white smoke, though. :(
 
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