Smith & Model 19-4 and cracked forcing cone

[mesinge2]

I just bought a new-to-me Smith & Model 19-4 and I had planed to carry Speer Gold Dot 135gr. Magnum Short Barrel ammo. Speer's site says that out of a 2" barrel it has a velocity of 990fps and 294 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy.

With the 2.5" barrel of the Smith this is perfect. However I read online that:

[The model 19] ... was truly a wonderful compromise between a midsized carry gun and a powerful magnum revolver.

As with all compromises, some problems did occur. The Model 19 developed a history of cracked forcing cones, usually occurring at the 6:00 position, where the barrel is relieved for the cylinder rod. The cracks occur much more frequently with 125 grain .357 magnum ammo, as does flame cutting of the top strap. Over time, problems with excessive endshake will develop on a steady diet of full house .357 magnum. The Model 19 was meant to be carried with magnums, but it needs .38 specials for practice. Smith and Wesson later concurred with this opinion. Today, there are no more Model 19 barrels at S&W. A cracked forcing cone means the demise of a fine gun. Care must be taken not to use 125 grain .357 magnum ammunition.

From: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/08/smith-wesson-model-19-4-nickel.html

 

[mesinge2]

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[Pistol Toter]

If your going to load it with magnums stay with the 147gr. to 158gr. There are technical reasons for that, but we won't get into all that right now. The 135 gr gold dot .38 spl +P's won't hurt a "K" frame gun.

 

[Oro]

That round would be fine.

Keep in mind the main culprit of the "internet scare" about the K-frames - Super Vel ammunition. The .357 magnum 125gr. loads in popular use that resulted in most all documented cases of barrel cracking were moving along at 1700 or more fps with commensurate energy levels. Even their .38 special (in 110gr.) has been clocked at over 1200 fps! The "headline" of the story gets repeated, but never the details.

With respects to the quote you posted above, it should mention that it's not the bullet weight alone that can cause damage - it has to be combined with extreme muzzle speeds and powder charges. There aren't any major manufacturers loading to these borderline levels any more, and there isn't any major manufacturer's .357 ammo that I wouldn't put in my 66's or 19.

 

[Confederate]

Although the 19 isn't intended for sustained firing of hot magnum loads, we shouldn't overemphasize the problem or fret too much about it.

According to an AMERICAN RIFLEMAN article published in the 70s, C.E. Harris reviewed about eight or nine .357s. He said he wore out a Model 19 by shooting about 2,000 hot magnum rounds through it. He retimed it twice before frame stretching took its toll. This gives the gun a respectable servive life if one considers that this is a total of 80 boxes of full throttle hot ammo -- not including standard .38 Spc (including +P), whch can be shot indefinitely. I have a Ruger Security-Six, which can eat anything, and it hasn't had nearly that! How many people will really run that many hot, light rounds through their guns?

Not many.

Stainless will fare better than blue, but the 19/66 will shoot a lot of magnum rounds before it bites the dust. (And some of the guns have just had poor heat treat in the barrels.)

The medium frame mags are great, but you shouldn't be too be too
hesitant to shoot magnum rounds in them, especially factory rounds.

 

[Steve C]

Read this article about the isue of 125gr JHP's in K frames http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm, it gives a good idea of the problem.

Personally I load 125's for defense and have shot a few just to see how they shoot. If they happen to crack the forcing cone when I need them in a defensive situation, well the loss of a pistol is going to be the least of my worries. The full power old bullet style load by Remington or Federal has the best reputation for stopping power there is. The other option is to use "medium" velocity loads like the .357 mag Golden Sabers.

For practice I stick with handloaded 158gr LSWC's.

 

[roaddog28]

You should not have a problem shooting the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo. The K frame magnums are ok to shoot 357 ammo as long as your fps stays below the 1300. The full power 125g will easily exceed 1400 to 1600. That would be a problem with any K frame magnums no matter what length of barrel. You will be fine. Also, another fine round for self defense is the Remington Golden Saber 125g HP. I believe they are currently availiable at Midway USA. This round has less recoil and muzzle flash than most ammo. The fps is around 1200 to 1250 in a 4 inch barrel. You could go Remington to confirm.
Good luck,
roaddog28

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Speer's site says that out of a 2" barrel it has a velocity of 990fps and 294 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy.

This is a much milder load than the full power, ear-splitting muzzle blast, thunderclap report, bright muzzle flash, forcing cone cracking 125-grainers, which average 1450 fps (four-inch barrel; probably 1350 from a 2 1/2-inch). You will not be able to afford enough to damage your barrel. An added bonus is that you will be better able to control the recoil and get more shots on target faster.

 

[mesinge2]

I posted pics.

Thanks everyone. You definetly alleviated my fears.

I got this for a song, even though it does have some blueing missing.
On that note, what would be a good easy method to touch the blueing, without the gun looking like cr*p.

 

[Oro]

Looks like it has just seen some poor storage and not much use.

The cw on cold blues is Oxpho from Brownell's. Get any oxidation off with steel wool and oil. Then degrease agressively with soap and then acetone or similar. Heat it to like 150 to 200 in an oven then apply the cold blue per instructions. It'll take several applications to get a decent take on it - as much as six or eight times.

That's the Cliff Notes, search "cold blue" and you can find tips and tricks in detail. I use that process and it works as well as any cold blue can.

 

[StrawHat]

Just because S&W doesn't make barrels for the 19 doesn't mean they are not available. There are a lot of gun parts out there and barrels are not that hard to acquire.

 

[tipoc]

It should also be mentioned that the problems with the cracked forcing cones had a great deal to do with improper maintenance. When lead .38 ammo was regularly shot through the guns followed by hot jacketed 125 gr. loads the pressure on the thin metal at the area of the forcing cone was increased.

Keep the gun clean and free of lead build up in the area of the forcing cone and the gun will last for many thousands of rounds.

tipoc

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Back in the 70's Super Vel got a contract (briefly) with the Treasury Dept. A lot of 19's craped out on the very first quals. I carried a 66 for years and it went back to S & W after about 300 rounds of rem. 125 mags. They replaced the barrel and cylinder f.o.c. I think the ammo loaded today is not as hot as the older stuff.

 

[harmonic]

Another county heard from.

The 125 grain bullets driven to maximum velocities used large charges of relatively slow-burning powders. Handloaders know the powder types as WW296 and H-110, among others. The combination of slow ball-type powders and the short bearing surface of the 125 bullets allows prolonged gas cutting of the forcing cone and top strap area, accelerating erosion and wear.

Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.

In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums. You notice that S&W has discontinued production of K frame .357 magnums, no doubt due to product liability issues and a couple generations of K frame magnum experience.

 

[sw282]

I have never seen a Super Vel 357Mag load in 125 grs. I have been a collector of their ammo for years. I have 110gr-137gr-150gr-158. But no 125grs

 

[Oro]

Here's a pic of the Super Vel 125gr. bullets. Don't have a pic of a box of the loaded rounds. Keep looking!

 

[rcmodel]

When lead .38 ammo was regularly shot through the guns followed by hot jacketed 125 gr. loads the pressure on the thin metal at the area of the forcing cone was increased.

I agree that had more to do with it then anything else.

Factory loaded 158 grain .357 loads of the day were loaded with very soft swaged lead bullets at very high pressure.

They would cause severe barrel & forcing cone leading in a cylinder or two full.
Move on the the ultra-hot Super-Vel without cleaning and you have set the stage for very bad things to happen.

At the time it was common for the cops to burn up a lot of lead bullet .38 Special in practice, and then at the end of the day, shoot a few .357 mags without cleaning, then reload and put it back in the duty holster.

rc

 

[stonecutter2]

I own a 19-4 as well. I conversed with a good guy at S&W (mix-up in ordering some standard wood grips for it) and he said although they no longer have replacement barrels, they have, in the past, turned barrels and recut the forcing cone IF the split isn't too significant. So, although the problem is limited to using the rounds the good folks above have already mentioned, if something does happen...there's still a chance S&W could fix the revolver.

I inspect it after shooting just to make sure I catch something as early as possible, if something happens. I also try to shoot only 158gr rounds.

He also said that I (and you) owned one of the finest revolvers S&W had ever made, in his opinion. And I have to admit that it's a sweet one.

Congrats on the purchase!

 

[SaxonPig]

First of all, I doubt that a load pushing a 125 grain bullet at a measly 990 FPS will damage ANY 357 revolver. The chamber pressure on such a load will be around 20,000 PSI in my estimation and the 357 Magnum has a ceiling of 35,000 PSI. If the danger is from excessive powder burning in the forcing cone as some suggest, this load won't have enough powder in it to worry about having any left over after firing.

But this has become #75 on my list of 100 FAQs in firearm discussion forums.

K Frame S&Ws with .357 Magnum ammo?

75. There are many stories about Model 19s cracking the forcing cones. Actual guns observed failing in this fashion are relatively few. But it does happen. One police armorer stated that he saw a number of such failures and noted that all of the guns were dirty. His theory is that accumulated carbon deposits can create “hot spots” that may damage the barrel upon firing (so keeping the barrel spotlessly clean might eliminate the problem). He observed that several of the guns failed using 158 grain 357 ammo and one M19 cracked from using .38 Special ammo which sort of undermines the popular belief that it is the hot 125 grain loads causing the problem. I have noticed that a large percentage (maybe most) of the failed guns were 19-5s. These were crush-fit barrels rather than the earlier pinned models. I suspect that these new barrels were often defective in material or installation, causing the cracking. I have a 2.5” M19-3 made in 1970 and carried by a federal officer for 18 years. When I bought it, he said it had never been fired with anything other than 125 grain full Magnum loads and that’s all I shoot in it. So far, no problems.

 

[mesinge2]

These posts really helped, thanks guys.

THR is great for these kinds of questions. Its a great resource.

I am going to the range Tuesday, expect a firing line report

 

[roaddog28]

First of all, I doubt that a load pushing a 125 grain bullet at a measly 990 FPS will damage ANY 357 revolver. The chamber pressure on such a load will be around 20,000 PSI in my estimation and the 357 Magnum has a ceiling of 35,000 PSI. If the danger is from excessive powder burning in the forcing cone as some suggest, this load won't have enough powder in it to worry about having any left over after firing.

But this has become #75 on my list of 100 FAQs in firearm discussion forums.

K Frame S&Ws with .357 Magnum ammo?

75. There are many stories about Model 19s cracking the forcing cones. Actual guns observed failing in this fashion are relatively few. But it does happen. One police armorer stated that he saw a number of such failures and noted that all of the guns were dirty. His theory is that accumulated carbon deposits can create “hot spots” that may damage the barrel upon firing (so keeping the barrel spotlessly clean might eliminate the problem). He observed that several of the guns failed using 158 grain 357 ammo and one M19 cracked from using .38 Special ammo which sort of undermines the popular belief that it is the hot 125 grain loads causing the problem. I have noticed that a large percentage (maybe most) of the failed guns were 19-5s. These were crush-fit barrels rather than the earlier pinned models. I suspect that these new barrels were often defective in material or installation, causing the cracking. I have a 2.5” M19-3 made in 1970 and carried by a federal officer for 18 years. When I bought it, he said it had never been fired with anything other than 125 grain full Magnum loads and that’s all I shoot in it. So far, no problems.

Good point. A lot of the forcing cone problems were from lack of maintainance. And that is probably true for any revolver not just the model 19. I have two 66s and I clean them after every range session. The revolvers are perfect with no signs of wear. If a person uses his or hers head then there should not be a problem.

roaddog28