"Smokeless" blackpowder?

[TheAzn]

General history tells us that we went from Blackpowder to "Smokeless" Nitrocellulose during the early 20th century.

We know that "Smokeless" does not really mean completely smokeless; but, when compared with old fashion Blackpowder, it is certainly less "dusty".

I'm just curious about things more specific than general history. Before the advent of true "smokeless" powder, how would people make Blackpowder relatively smokeless?

What additives would they use and how successful were they?

 

[Pulp]

You could make it without sulfur, called brown powder. Harder to ignite, but somewhat less smoke.

 

[Jim K]

Another way tried was by use of different woods for the charcoal.

Jim

 

[TheAzn]

Thank you for the answers, guys.

Another way tried was by use of different woods for the charcoal.

Cool. What are these other types of wood?

 

[Hellgate]

During the transition from BP to smokeless Dupont made a powder IIRC Dupont Bulk. It was a yellowish white powder of about FFg consistency and was marketed to reloaders who were familiar with BP reloading and used it in (at least) shotshells. I broke apart an old shotshell and it had the Bulk powder in it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Cool. What are these other types of wood?

The best wood to use to make charcoal for Black Powder is Buckthorn Alder. That is what is used in Swiss Black Powder. Not really going to eliminate smoke, but it does make for less fouling. Fouling was more of a concern than smoke, although of course a big puff of white smoke does tend to give away your position.

More to it than just the wood species, it is quite an art to make good charcoal for a really good Black Powder like Swiss.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

During the ACW, there were several powder mills around the Hill country in Texas producing bp for the Confederacy. They processed bat guano from the numerous caves in the area to produce nitre, made charcoal from red cedar, and imported sulfur from México. A réplica of the old Anderson Powder Mill is located near Cypress Creek NW of Austin.

 

[Jim Watson]

"Underburnt" charcoal powder and "prismatic" powder compressed into regular granules gave more velocity and less fouling than the traditional "corned" powder. There was powder made with charcoal from rye straw instead of wood. But I doubt they gave much less smoke.

Other oxidizers like sodium nitrate and ammonium nitrate could substitute for the traditional potassium nitrate, but I doubt that would do much about the smoke, either. The reactions are all too similar.

 

[swathdiver]

Don't know about you fellas, but the smoke is part of the appeal! The other side only knows your position for a second or two anyway, by that time, smoke from everyone else has obscured all the positions. Now move, reload, drop down and shoot back!

 

[Patocazador]

Blackhorn 209, for one, is really a smokeless powder as is 777. They have to doctor it to make it smoke and fit the Feds' guidelines.

 

[shunka]

> Blackhorn 209, for one, is really a smokeless powder as is 777.

It is my understanding that 777 is a "sulphur-less" BP, and may have a form of sugar added. I beleive These sulphurless powders were used as transitional powders in cartridges "back in the day", they were (are0 10-20% more energetic, had less fouling, but are more difficult to ignite.

yhs
shunka

 

[Noz]

APP is a sugar based product.

I don't like it. Too many carbs.

 

[EljaySL]

You might also read up on trail boss. It's a modern smokeless powder and I would NOT use it in a muzzleloader but it's intended to load cartridges that were originally black powder, like 45 Colt or 38 Special. The advantage is that you can load much like black powder - fill the case leaving room for the bullet, instead of just having a little pinch of titegroup in the bottom, leaving a lot of empty space and the possibility of double charges, etc.

The drawback is you can't compress it which is part of why it's a no-go for muzzleloaders. And the reason you can't compress it is instead of using fillers or whatever they shaped it into little donuts! So it takes up a lot of volume, but if you start breaking the donuts all bets are off.

My five year old read what I just wrote and is now shouting "donuts! donuts!" Uh, oh.

 

[BobWright]

As a matter of interest, smokeless powder produced such higher pressures that even when the guns were proofed for smokeless, problems of cases sticking or binding against the recoil shield that until new guns became prominent, an alternative was Semi-Smokeless and LesSmoke powders. These developed less smoke and flash than black powder, but developed lower pressures.

This was generally confined to revolvers, as rifles had rigid breech blocks to contain the cartridge.

Ammunition of the period was identified by the primer metal:

Copper-Black powder

Brass- Semi smokeless

Nickeled- Smokeless

Note this holds true only for period ammunition!

Bob Wright

 

[Palehorseman]

During the ACW, there were several powder mills around the Hill country in Texas producing bp for the Confederacy. They processed bat guano from the numerous caves in the area to produce nitre, made charcoal from red cedar, and imported sulfur from México. A réplica of the old Anderson Powder Mill is located near Cypress Creek NW of Austin.

During the ACW, the finest black powder in the world was made by the Confederacy in Augusta, Georgia.

When countries like England, Germany & etc. visited the powder works, they were amazed as to how far ahead the confederates were. There were more than a few instances where the Union captured Confederate powder and threw theirs away.


One can read all about the CSA powder works in the book, "Never For Want of powder".

https://www.google.com/#q=never+for+want+of+powder+augusta+georgia

 

[Palehorseman]

"Underburnt" charcoal powder and "prismatic" powder compressed into regular granules gave more velocity and less fouling than the traditional "corned" powder. There was powder made with charcoal from rye straw instead of wood. But I doubt they gave much less smoke.

Other oxidizers like sodium nitrate and ammonium nitrate could substitute for the traditional potassium nitrate, but I doubt that would do much about the smoke, either. The reactions are all too similar.

There was powder made with charcoal from rye straw instead of wood.

You have just described brown powder, it was used primarily as a transitional propellant for artillery.

https://www.google.com/#q=brown+powder+for+artillery.

 

[alsaqr]

It is my understanding that 777 is a "sulphur-less" BP, and may have a form of sugar added.

Triple Seven also contains potassium perchlorate for added puissance.

http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

 

[RPRNY]

At the risk of being pedantic, the smokeless transition began with the 8mm Lebel, introduced in France in 1886. By 1894, the first US commercial smokeless cartridge, the 30-40 Krag, was chambered in the Win M1885 Highwall. A year later, the 30-30 cartridge was introduced. Both were designed for smokeless powder and were never commercially loaded with black powder.

Given that 55% of the results of combustion of BP are solids (fouling) only 43% gas and up to 2% water (,in steam form, a great contributor to visible smoke), a "smokeless" combustion of BP is impossible. Removal of sulphur, as outlined above, diminishes visible smoke constituents but makes ignition harder. The substitutes such Blackhorn 209 and T7 are not really Black Powder and have compounds added to create visible smoke.

Perhaps the best method for reduced smoke black powder would be using low smoke charcoal, removing sulphur and using a small charge of high quality traditional black powder at the base of the powder column to facilitate ignition.

 

[DrDucati900]

Phil Sharpe had a good discussion of BP and transition to smokeless in his book on handloading. It's long out of print but you can still find it. Good reference on lots of older topics.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

You might also read up on trail boss. It's a modern smokeless powder and I would NOT use it in a muzzleloader but it's intended to load cartridges that were originally black powder, like 45 Colt or 38 Special. The advantage is that you can load much like black powder - fill the case leaving room for the bullet, instead of just having a little pinch of titegroup in the bottom, leaving a lot of empty space and the possibility of double charges, etc.

The drawback is you can't compress it which is part of why it's a no-go for muzzleloaders. And the reason you can't compress it is instead of using fillers or whatever they shaped it into little donuts! So it takes up a lot of volume, but if you start breaking the donuts all bets are off.

My five year old read what I just wrote and is now shouting "donuts! donuts!" Uh, oh.

Howdy

Not quite correct. Trail Boss was developed for the Cowboy Action shooters who wanted very light loads in large calibers like 45 Colt. Hence the name. Large capacity cartridges like 45 Colt do not perform well with just a few grains of Whiz Bang in the case. Too much empty air space. Trail Boss is specifically made up of large, fluffy 'donut' shaped grains so it will take up a lot of space when light loads are used for some of these cartridges.

Here is a link to the IMR page describing how to develop light loads with Trail Boss. Filling the case would be a MAX Load with Trail Boss. IMR suggests starting at 70% of that amount.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

 

[Speedo66]

The examples cited above in the chart were all originally smokeless powder cartridges, and thus strong actions.

I wouldn't fill the cases of black powder loads in original black powder guns with Trailboss.

 

[RPRNY]

The examples cited above in the chart were all originally smokeless powder cartridges, and thus strong actions.

I wouldn't fill the cases of black powder loads in original black powder guns with Trailboss.

Excellent point. Also, if using TB in a cartridge for a modern strong action, avoid any compression of TB as its has been shown to deliver pressure spikes when under compression.