So is Remington Golden Saber worth it???

[StrikeFire83]

Okay, so I've been shooting and carrying Winchester "USA" White Box 115 gr. JHPs in my guns for years now. It functions flawlessly in my Glock 17, CZ-75, and Kahr PM9.

This stuff: http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/usa/jhp/Pages/USA9JHP.aspx

But all the gun store cowboys and "former Texas rangers" and even folks at the range have called my ammo selection inadequate for self-defense purposes. Now the gun store guys have a vested interest in my changing to a higher priced ammo that only they and a few others sell locally.

And what constantly comes is that Remington Golden Saber is the way to go. Texas Rangers carry it, most PDs carry it, the FBI carrys it...bla bla bla bla bla.

Is my current carry ammo choice a poor one? Convince me.

 

[PT1911]

any good JHP will get the job done.. hell... most FMJ's will EVENTUALLY.. is the golden saber a good round? yes

Is a bad guy going to know the difference between it and other hollow points? NO

Will his organs? Perhaps

 

[StrikeFire83]

Does anybody have any ballistics on the WWB ammo that I linked to above? Its reasonably priced, available everywhere from Walmart to gun shows to online to the local gun store. I can find it on Golden Saber but not WWB. And I honestly dont know *** most of these numbers mean. Pictures of ballistic gelatin are easier to understand, visual.

 

[bwsmith2850]

Your WWB will do just fine. I carry it in .357 (110gr SJHP) in my revolvers, where I can carry anything I want.

What you're using is reliable & accurate. That's imoprtant. You trust it. That's critical. Winchester makes good bullets. If you had some mystery ammo from Whereisitstan I'd advise you to run tho the gunstore & get something else, but this is from a good maker.

Don't put your faith in a bullet because 'someone' uses it. Department ammunition choices are not necessarily based on 'what's best.'

They can be based on who made the rounds first.

They can be made because a salesman gives an initial discount to get it adopted.

LOW BID

Our supplier carries it.

The Rangers, FBI, etc carry it.

We can get a discount if we order with another Dept. They use this one.

And my favorite, 'that's the way we've always done it.'

Every once in a while 'because our weapons shot this one the best.' (We all love those bosses)

Once adopted they normally won't change unless the bullets just don't perform or if they switch weapons and the new ones choke on the ammunition. (As we all know, some guns are just picky.)

Does anybody have any ballistics on the WWB ammo

I believe Guns & Ammo puts out a chart about this time of year. I don't recall too much difference between major makers for the same bullet weight.

 

[StrikeFire83]

For those who know electronics, it sounded a lot like the "Monster Cable" pitch to me.

"Yeah, what you have might work, and work well, but this is more expensive, it looks more expensive, and we sell it right over here."

Anybody have ballistic jelly pics of my current carry ammo??

 

[Manco]

Okay, so I've been shooting and carrying Winchester "USA" White Box 115 gr. JHPs in my guns for years now. It functions flawlessly in my Glock 17, CZ-75, and Kahr PM9.

This stuff: http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/usa/jhp/Pages/USA9JHP.aspx

But all the gun store cowboys and "former Texas rangers" and even folks at the range have called my ammo selection inadequate for self-defense purposes.

Based on tests I've read about, WWB JHP should do the job adequately, although premium JHP rounds are more reliable and effective. While the latter are definitely past the point of diminishing returns in terms of cost-effectiveness (some more than others), it's hard to argue against spending just a few more dollars for your all-important self-defense ammo while shooting WWB JHP or FMJ rounds for practice to save money. Not to be a shill for the ammunition manufacturers, but is your life worth a few extra bucks? Personally, I use only premium rounds for self-defense, shooting a box or less per year at the range in order to keep them fresh (the expensive part is running a good number through for initial compatibility testing).

And what constantly comes is that Remington Golden Saber is the way to go. Texas Rangers carry it, most PDs carry it, the FBI carrys it...bla bla bla bla bla.

In my opinion, the Golden Saber was once the premier JHP design, but other designs have caught up to or surpassed its performance. Overall it is very effective on bad guys per se, but its weakness is jacket separation, which can be an issue in some cases.

By the way, the FBI, for one, changes their ammo selection every so often, and what they're currently using is very similar to Winchester's PDX1. I happen to use the 180gr .40 S&W variant of this design, but not because the FBI does. It performs well in tests and has low flash. I'm not as familiar with the 9mm loads, but a really good one that I am familiar with is the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot, which both penetrates well and expands like crazy. This cartridge will definitely outperform your current WWB JHP, at least in ways that can be measured in tests. Federal HST is probably the biggest talk of the town with its consistent expansion and cool-looking expanded bullets, so you'll want to look into that design, too.

If you're really interested in maximizing or optimizing performance, then you have to look at each load individually. For example, in 9mm HST is great, but some Gold Dot loads match its expansion while exceeding its penetration, while others underperform. Some fairly well done comparative tests can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tnoutdoors9#g/u

 

[Manco]

For those who know electronics, it sounded a lot like the "Monster Cable" pitch to me.

I don't think that the situation with premium JHPs is nearly as extreme as that of Monster Cable in the audio world. Some JHPs perform demonstrably better than others, even when comparing different loads of premium rounds (some outright suck compared to others). What difference this makes in killing effectiveness is always debatable, but then again the difference in price is not comparable to Monster Cable charging $200 for a $2 cable. I personally can't hear any difference whatsoever between different audio cables (the tiny ones that come free with components work perfectly), but I can see in tests that cheap JHPs don't expand as reliably or as well as the best JHPs which cost a little more.

"Yeah, what you have might work, and work well, but this is more expensive, it looks more expensive, and we sell it right over here."

Well, FMJ bullets can kill, too. They've been killing people left and right for decades in numerous wars. Why not use those?

 

[Bill_G]

i use GS in all my autos. its no magic bullet but its famous for feeding in autos that don't feed any other JHP. brassfetcher.com has the 147 gr 9mm penetrating 12" and expanding to .60

thats plenty for me.

 

[19-3Ben]

Golden Saber is good, but it's just one of MANY premium defense ammunition choices.

Federal Hydrashock is an excellent round, if a little bit dated. Certainly more widely trusted than 'white box' HP's. Here it is for ~$0.50/round.


Good deals on defensive ammo are out there. Don't be afraid to look around for it.

Personally, in 9mm, i carry Speer Gold Dot. VERY trusted round, and about as good as technology will currently allow.

 

[hinton03]

If all I could afford was WWB JHP's that is what I would carry and wouldn't give it another thought, but I can afford better; how much better is debatable.

The key is expansion; handguns do not create enough velocity to cause JHP's to expand reliably and if they don't expand you are basically shooting FMJ performance. The extra money I spend for premium SD ammo is intended to increase the possibility of reliable expansion; how much of an increase in reliability is questionable and probable lies somewhere between 0-10% greater chance over the WWB, but I will pay the extra $10-15 buscks for my SD ammo to get that 10%.

I currently carry 124 gr GD in 9mm, 230 gr XTP in 45 ACP, 125 gr XTP in 357 Mag, 135 gr GD in 38 Sprcial and 125 gr GD in 357 Sig, but I am considering switching to Hornady Critical defense for 9mm and 38 Special.

 

[Evnldr]

I use WWB JHP. cheap and work I relaod my own JHP for range use with the same specs

 

[Gryffydd]

i use GS in all my autos. its no magic bullet but its famous for feeding in autos that don't feed any other JHP.

+1 This doesn't help you much as you're already getting reliable feeding with your WWB JHPs, but the Golden Sabers really do feed like butter even in pickier guns. Looking at the shape of the nose it's quite clear why. It's more like a RN with a cavity than it is a TC with a cavity like many JHPs, if that makes sense.

 

[Steve C]

I always carry and load a premium jhp for defense. I'm not really particular as to which brand of the many good ones out there. I generally use surplus police ammo mostly Winchester Ranger but have Hydra shoks, Golden Sabers, Star fires, Black Talons, SXT, PDX and Gold Dots that I've picked up when they've been on sale. While the premium ammo is a bit more expensive if the extra $5 gives me a slightly better chance of surving an armed encounter, should such an event ever arise, then its probably worth it.

That being said, I don't waste this ammo shooting holes in paper beyond testing it for reliability and point of impact. For practice I use FMJ or ammo I've reloaded.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, StrikeFire83. I will provide what I have. My informal expansion "tests" will draw the ire of some because they were not done in 10% ballistic gelatin. The reason is simple: I don't have the money to buy the gelatin nor the climate-controlled lab in which to shoot it so that its consistency is constant. No doubt that 10% gelatin is the current gold standard but I make do with super-saturated newsprint as well as plain old water. I soak the newsprint for about 24 hours and drain it 30 minutes prior to shooting. It is not perfect to be sure but it does offer at least a comparison and in the cases where I've been able to recover the same bullets from animals I've shot, results have been similar.

The listed average velocities are from two different 9mm Browning Mk III Hi Powers. They are based on 10-shots each and were fired 10' from the chronograph screens.


Here is the Winchester USA 115-gr. JHP, which resembles the same company's Silvertip hollow point. Average velocities: 1161 and 1154 ft/sec. The bullet on the left was fired into water. The one on the right was fired into "wetpack". It measured 0.64 x 0.61 x 0.31" tall and weighed 112-gr. Penetration was 6". This translates roughly to 9" penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin.


This is Remington's 147-gr. Golden Saber. Average velocities from the same two Hi Powers: 1033 and 1004 ft/sec. The one on the right was fired into water and the one on the left into wetpack. It measured 0.61 x 0.62 x 0.42" tall and lost virtually no weight when expanded. Penetration measured 8.25" which should be about 12.4" or so in gelatin.

Both were reliable in my pistols and both grouped very well.

Just as a matter of interest, the bullets below are expanded 9mm Winchester 127-gr. +P+ fired from the same Mk III Hi Power.


The bullet on the left was fired into wetpack. The one in the middle was recovered from a whitetail deer legally killed with it (one shot and the animal dropped like a rock; it went into my freezer as well). The one on the right was fired into water.

I will leave the interpetations to the readers. Too often these threads wind up in "shouting matches" and I just prefer not to take part in them.

Anyway, hope this provided at least some assistance.

Best.

 

[Jonah71]

I always carry and load a premium jhp for defense. I'm not really particular as to which brand of the many good ones out there. I generally use surplus police ammo mostly Winchester Ranger but have Hydra shoks, Golden Sabers, Star fires, Black Talons, SXT, PDX and Gold Dots that I've picked up when they've been on sale. While the premium ammo is a bit more expensive if the extra $5 gives me a slightly better chance of surving an armed encounter, should such an event ever arise, then its probably worth it.

That being said, I don't waste this ammo shooting holes in paper beyond testing it for reliability and point of impact. For practice I use FMJ or ammo I've reloaded.

What I shoot at the range is usually the less expensive. Right now I have old Black Talon HP's in my 9mm (but that will change since I checked the prices on gunbroker.com this morning). Time to reload with the GS's I see no sense in going with cheaper ammo when carrying for self defense. But I agree, shooting holes in paper with high priced ammo just for practice doesn't make much sense either.

 

[hinton03]

Stephen A. Camp: Have you tried shooting through clothes or dry wall to see if there is a tendency for one brand to not expand due to the cavity becoming clogged? Just interested because the WWB seems to have performed very reliably in your test medium.

Thanks for sharing?

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. No, sir. I have not. I suspect that the Golden Saber, Gold Dot, DPX and other premium brands would probably do better than the "older technology" JHP's since in many cases they are designed to "pass" such tests.

Best.

 

[StrikeFire83]

Hey Steven, thanks a bundle, that's exactly what I was looking for!

It seems to me the Winchester USA JHPs do a pretty good job of expanding in your tests. Most human being I know are less than 9 inches wide, and we don't get many people wearing parkas in Central Texas. All the USA JHPs seem to lack are the jagged slicey thingys the the golden saber and the winchester +p+ (ranger/xst???) have coming off the ends as the bullet opens up. While that might be a nice F-you to bad buy, I don't see it as necessary. If we're talking about millimeters of extra tissue damage, well, that's great and may be the difference in stopping someone but you could go around in circles debating what extra expansion is worth what price.

Cheapest price I can find locally for Golden Saber in 9mm is $24.99 plus tax. One shop even wanted $36.99 plus tax!!! And this is for a 25 round box. So at best I'm going to be spending about $215 PER GUN going through the 200 round reliability test. I have three 9mm and none are safe queens, so that would be $860 just to make sure all my weapons function with the stuff.

As for practicing with a different ammo than you carry to keep costs down, I agree. But there's no way I'm going to carry any ammo that hasn't passed the 200 round test in one of my guns.

 

[19-3Ben]

Ok, so Remington Golden Saber is over $1.00 a round. But my question to you is, why are you hung up on the GOlden Saber rounds when it is just one of many premium defense loadings?

The Federal Hydra-shok that I posted above is $0.50 per round. There, you cut the cost in half, and you STILL have a premium defense loading rather than the White Box stuff.
I mean, it's your life and I have no say in which ammo you use nor does it really matter that much to me. (and frankly, the bad guy probably won't know the difference either.)
I'm just curious why the hang up on Golden Saber vs. any other round that's just as good.

 

[Water-Man]

Google 'best choices for self defense ammo'.

 

[StrikeFire83]

No hang up, 50 cents per round seems much more reasonable to me. A local dealer has 100 round boxes of hydrashock 9mm for 39.99 plus tax. That's a lot more reasonable.

I agree that the "how much is your life worth" argument comes into play, but there have to be limits. I don't know how many of you have seen those "ninja bullets" that cost like $30 for a package of 8 rounds that are individually bubble packed onto a colorful card like an action figure with pictures of swat teams and I'm not joking...ninjas, but I'm sure there are people who buy that stuff as well.

I got hung up on golden sabers because several supposedly informed sources at several different gun shops bristled at carrying anything else.

 

[19-3Ben]

A local dealer has 100 round boxes of hydrashock 9mm for 39.99 plus tax.

That's an outrageous deal! Hydra-shock was THE standard until the other companies caught up to it. Were I shopping for defense ammo right now, I'd be looking at Hydrashock, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, DPX, Ranger, etc... All are excellent.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I think Golden Sabers are great rounds... but I did buy a bunch back when they were only $15/25 rounds. I still have a bunch of 124g +P, and they are my usual carry load for 9mm. I also use them in 10mm (DoubleTap) and in .38 Spl. At todays prices though, I would likely buy Federal HST 124g +P. They are every bit as good, but are currently only about $35/50 rounds. All of the GS I have seen locally these days is around $23/25 rounds. Honestly, I see little difference in modern defensive ammo. I just buy the one that has the best price... as long as it is reliable, I have no preference.

HydraShocks are decent too, and affordable. But considering that they are a pretty old design, I doubt they are any more effective than the WWB stuff in reality.

As for the WWB/PP ammo, I like it a lot. I prefer the 147g stuff though, and use it in my spare mags... saves quite a bit of $. They have been totally reliable for me. Also, every round expanded nicely when fired in wet phone books (tested about 10 rounds).

 

[vzwnnj]

worry about your shot placement more than worrying about the ammo selection...as long as it feeds reliably...you are good to go if you are comfortable with it

 

[KyJim]

I have a stock of WWB 115 gr JHPs I keep for my 9mm. But I don't consider them the best choice. Today's bonded JHPs will hold together better which translates into deeper penetration. They also generally expand better. These include the Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, Corbon DPX and the Winchester Ranger Ts. Federal Hydra Shocks are also dated. The HSTs are better.

Mr. Camp has given you some results he has obtained. Here are some additional links of some interest:
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/ballistics.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm

And, even though they don't test a 9mm and it has nothing to do with your question, here's a link about shooting underwater -- just for the heck of it. http://www.dlsports.com/underwater_handgun_shooting.html