So what's the general consensus on the FN Five-seveN?

[baylorattorney]

Your kind of posts remind me of how people thought when 5.56 was first introduced.

aren't you a little young to remember when the 5.56 was introduced? Hehe. Jk

However, you make a very valid point. People are afraid of change and new technologies. specifically, Americans like big calibers (45, 308...) and generally don't believe smaller bullets will do the job. They are missing the bigger picture, fn designed this round to not be a one shot stopper, but multiple impacts on target, etc. penetration of body armor.

While my personal opinion on the handgun may be not so favorable, my opinion on the round and the technology and research FN put into it is favorable - good science. I like it and hope to see more ammo options.


Mark, esquire

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

aren't you a little young to remember when the 5.56 was introduced? Hehe. Jk

Doesn't mean I don't know history.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Yes, the news articles are very fun to read.

However, the plural of "third world newspaper article" is not "data".

The 5.7 does have its place though. It is a fun little prairie dog round just like the .22 Magnum.

The bait has been cast...

I've got your prairie dog right here...


The Five-seveN pistol is the lightest, highest capacity pistol you will probably ever fire. It has a huge muzzle blast, is as loud as a 10mm, and always gets attention at the range. While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game. Recoil is quite a bit less than 9mm, 5.7 ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, and with an inch and a half mag extension you can have 31 shots at your disposal. Making fast, accurate follow up shots is the Five-seveN's ace in the hole.

Someone mentioned an old FBI test where outdated and discontinued ammo was shown to offer less than optimal penetration. That's very, very old news so I would advise not regurgitating it less you look silly to those of us that are informed. There are numerous 5.7x28mm loads currently available that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example, this random handload expanded and penetrated 14-15 inches in three tests done by Brassfetcher in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin:

Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 685 ft-lbs and/or 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round:

It was the general opinion of three physicians-two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive an S4 torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room- and even then it would be at best a toss up." -Dr. JD Brown

As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target.

Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol.

The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart.




More hunting data...

okay. saw no hogs in texas. (and i thought they had a problem with hogs....only problem i had was i saw no hogs.

anyhow Rifle season for deer opened up on sat. i was working so i missed sat but i made it out on sunday. nada. well monday was the charm.

i got a medium doe with my PS90. 35-45 yards away. used SS197. shot her in the chest. double lung. she walked 10-15 paced and that was it. i found the round just under the skin on the opposite side. it had also passed through her shoulder. it missed her ribs and other bones as far as i can tell right now

then as i was cleaning her, a medium buck walked by. i used my new (got it friday the 18th) Colt 45 special combat govt. i used my reloads. 230gr JHP rounds. he was 30-40 yards away. again, a double lung shot. he walked about 12-15 paces and died.

i could not believe that while i was cleaning one another walked on by.

now for the fun part. i have not found the 45 acp round yet. it passes through and may have hit the flat part of his shoulder. i found a very small exit hole in his outer fur. the holes on the inside of the rib cage were not all that big.

the 5.7x28 round was a different story. it passes through the body cavity and through the muscle of her shoulder. it stopped just below the skin/fur. the hole on both sides of the rib cage were 2-3 times bigger than the 45acp holes. the 5.7 round holes were probably like 2-2.5 inches in diameter. i shot a couple of quick snaps and used a quarter for size. the holes are 9 o'clock in one photo and 11 o'clock in another...between the ribs

photos here: http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

i found three pieces of the SS197 round. i found all three pieces in roughly the same spot.

a very interesting day. i will get more photos after we get the skins off. i will get better measurements and see if i can find the 45 round.

please see these photos for the measurements of the 3 pieces from the 5.7 round. http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

eddie

This is more like what I hear about people that have hunted with the very relatively low-powered (compared to what you can buy from EA) factory SS197 round. It does a LOT more damage than what they were expecting. When analyzing the effects of 5.7x28mm rounds on living tissue it requires one to actually see the effects on tissue, not just make a prediction based on grain weight, velocity, and energy. You have to understand the bullets behavior when impacting flesh at a certain speed. In the SS197's case, the 40gr ballistic V-Max round has shredded a lot of game over the years.



Here are a few more accounts of the 5.7 used against game:

I love my 5.7, and It makes a great carry gun for hiking as it is light and I can carry it and 60 rounds that weighs less than one loaded 1911 with 8 rounds. My old man took a coyote out with one in the yard and it put a hole out the other side of the chest the size of a cantaloupe (It was an oblique shot no less).

I'd really like to see just one topic that celebrates this unique cartridge instead of calling it a novelty. I trust my five seven as much or more than any of my other firearms. It has jammed exactly as many times as my S&W 686 (that's a revolver kids).

Two weeks ago I came across a half dead deer on the side of the road, coming home from the range. I used the five seven to put the poor thing down, and the head/neck wound was probably the most gore I have ever seen besides fresh roadkill. I have no doubts to the lethallity of this caliber, seeing as one round of SS197 made such a graphic fatal wound on a living animal, where a round nosed bullet from the same distance could have potentially bounced off the skull.

Lightweight, very dependable, low recoil, high capacity, accurate, low maintainence and very easy field stripping. How are these bad things?

I've killed 2 (medium-sized hogs), and with both I put several rounds of ss192 (this is the hollow-point round that tumbles and does not fragment like the SS197) into them. Not sure how many it actually would have taken to kill them, but they were dead when I walked up.

The first one I shot I hit 2 times right off the bat,(straight into the side) missed with 2 and then put about 4 more in. It was not moving away from me after the first 2 (it was moving in kind of a circular out of control movement), but I was rapid firing so I killed dirt with shots 3 and 4. Shots 5-8 were all over it

The 2nd hog was a headshot (from the side) with round one and the next 4 were all hits in the side and then belly. It didn't move after the first shot.

These were both medium sized ferral hogs shot at dusk using the laser and the light on the M6. I normally hunt with a Russian Nagan and a .45 Baby Eagle. The weekend I got these I had forgotten my Nagant ammo so decided to try something different. Glad I did...It was a freaking blast to hunt hogs this way.


I always laugh when people badmouth the Five-seveN.... I have seen what it does to flesh, and it's definitly something to have respect for. The cool thing is I have also shot squirrel with it and it just leaves a little hole with ss192. A gun that you can realistically hunt hog and squirrel with is one kick ass gun indeed.

Now, some are curious as to the wound pattern. In the Squirrels, it's just a 5.7 hole straight through. In the hogs broadside it's a small entrance hole and a nasty cavity, but as you would expect the round stays in. How deep depends on what it hit. I didn't get exactly surgical so I can only tell you that the couple we looked at (one we actually cut open which unfortunatly for me was a gutshot that was just ugly as hell) were pretty impressive and about what you would expect from a .223 really. Honestly, in larger animals it ends up similar to, but below a .223, but the round stays amazingly unhurt. I actually have one round that was inside one of the hogs that we picked up a few months later in the spot where it rotted and aside from the rifleing it looks like you could stick it back in a shell and refire it.

I went out into the South Dakota wilderness this morning to shoot some of my 35 and 40 grain reloads (all functioned PERFECTLY with no failures of any kind with brass trimmed to 1.128 and 6.5 grn of HS-6 [OAL on the 35 - 1.46, 40grn 1.58])

Interesting though, as I was walking the 2+ miles back to my truck I stepped in a hole and sank up to my calf. The ground felt kind of strange and started to move. Something seemed to bite into my sole. Sensing that something was TERRIBLY wrong I pulled my foot out of my boot just in time to watch something furry and loud pull my boot underground.

I went to the hole and was rushed by a 20 lb badger. I opened up with the 5-7. First round took the top of the skull off. I dug out the hole and found several more badgers. I shot them all in the hole (SD law alows Badgers and other varmits/predators to be shot essentially at will) and then cut them open to see the damage.

It looked like a bomb went off in them. To see what a .45 +P+ would do, I shot one in the flesh around the shoulder. Blew it out the back. However the wound channel was not as impressive as with the 35 & 40 V-Max, probably because the badger was not thick enough for the 230grn hollowpoint to expand enough. The .45 just made a really clean hole through and through. I was unable to find much of either weight V-Max (just little pieces here and there, most still in the badger, depending on angle of entry).

In my opinion I think this round has GREAT possibilities for varmiting. I can't wait for the rifles to come out for it.

"looked like a bomb went off"

That's what the gutshot in the hog looked like. It was just nasty...everything was mushy and shredded.

Some asked about stopping power. Last winter, a 1200 pound moose cow was hit by a car,she was still standing up but had a broken leg. No way would she survive. State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot and fired a second shot once down to make sure she was down for good. I was surprised the moose went down on the first shot and I'm pretty sure she was dead before firing the second round.

I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time.

This bit of info isn't about hunting but does offer some more data on the round that a lot of people have had success hunting with - the SS197 V-Max.

I have recently been seriously debating adopting this as a carry weapon. Obvious problem - this round has very very little documented real world data in self defense shootings. There are those that claim it is nothing more than a .22 Magnum. After extensive study and some tests of my own, I have concluded, quintessentially, that this simply isn't true and the sheer velocity of the round and its design to tumble and perform in that way similar to the 5.56x45 NATO (.223) round does infact make this cartridge at least potent enough to consider for real world self defense applications. Even so, I am not yet COMPLETELY convinced that I should trade out the tried and proven .45 acp for this. I would like the opinions and views of the Stormfront "gun-people" community on this, heh.
I will outline my test here - 5 frozen gallon jugs of water at approximately 8 meters distance. Shot with 158 gr. 38 special, 124 gr 9x19mm, 180 gr. 40S&W, and lastly 40 gr SS197 5.7x28mm.
.38 spc. - passed through with very little visible shock and basically a single channel
9mm - through with a decent amount of shock
.40 - rather serious amount of visible shock and large exit hole
5.7 - I wish I has photographed it. Essentially, complete devastation from shock of nearly the entire block could be seen. Unlike any of the other rounds.

 

[481]

The bait has been cast...

I've got your prairie dog right here...


The Five-seveN pistol is the lightest, highest capacity pistol you will probably ever fire. It has a huge muzzle blast, is as loud as a 10mm, and always gets attention at the range. While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game. Recoil is quite a bit less than 9mm, 5.7 ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, and with an inch and a half mag extension you can have 31 shots at your disposal. Making fast, accurate follow up shots is the Five-seveN's ace in the hole.

Someone mentioned an old FBI test where outdated and discontinued ammo was shown to offer less than optimal penetration. That's very, very old news so I would advise not regurgitating it less you look silly to those of us that are informed. There are numerous 5.7x28mm loads currently available that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example, this random handload expanded and penetrated 14-15 inches in three tests done by Brassfetcher in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin:

Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 685 ft-lbs and/or 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round:





Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol.

The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart.




More hunting data...









This is more like what I hear about people that have hunted with the very relatively low-powered (compared to what you can buy from EA) factory SS197 round. It does a LOT more damage than what they were expecting. When analyzing the effects of 5.7x28mm rounds on living tissue it requires one to actually see the effects on tissue, not just make a prediction based on grain weight, velocity, and energy. You have to understand the bullets behavior when impacting flesh at a certain speed. In the SS197's case, the 40gr ballistic V-Max round has shredded a lot of game over the years.



Here are a few more accounts of the 5.7 used against game:















This bit of info isn't about hunting but does offer some more data on the round that a lot of people have had success hunting with - the SS197 V-Max.

One piece of data and a wheel-barrow full of anecdotes doesn't equate to data either. It is still just one piece of data and a wheel-barrow full of anecdotes.

The Inuit have used calibers like the lowly .22 to harvest polar bears and other large game, but that hardly makes them suitable for the task. The 5.7 ain't a "giant killer" no matter how much you want it to be. Sorry, no cigar.

Also, if you don't wanna "look silly" to those who are informed...

You might want to consider using the correct terminology if you want to present the appearance of being knowledgeable and be taken seriously in the matters that you speak of, to wit:

Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol.

Unless some of the animals displayed in your post as "evidence" were at some point in their lives military personnel or in need of punishment, the term that you seek to employ is "corporeal", not "corporal", the latter being a military rank or relating to physical discipline, the former, relating "physical", "material" or "bodily" existence which seems to be more the point that you were attempting.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The Inuit have used calibers like the lowly .22 to harvest polar bears and other large game, but that hardly makes them suitable for the task. The 5.7 ain't a "giant killer" no matter how much you want it to be. Sorry, no cigar.

The Inuit practice rapid fire shots at the head with a semi auto .22LR, not a single round like the 5.7 here.

Unless some of the animals displayed in your post as "evidence" were at some point in their lives military personnel or in need of punishment, the term that you seek to employ is "corporeal", not "corporal", the latter being a military rank or relating to physical discipline, the former, relating "physical", "material" or "bodily" existence which seems to be more the point that you were attempting.

Is that really all you got from that entire post directly?

 

[481]

The Inuit practice rapid fire shots at the head with a semi auto .22LR, not a single round like the 5.7 here.



Is that really all you got from that entire post directly?

You missed the point.

A few "stunt shots" (under carefully selected circumstances, no doubt) do not support the wild claims being made. Again: Not data.

Honestly, I can't stop anyone from engaging in silly/irresponsible behavior, but I remain unconvinced by the dubious arguments and shaky "data" (save for one lonely little point courtesy of BF) put forth so far. It would also help those offering "data" if they expressed themselves in a more informed manner. Words make the argument; using the wrong one makes for a poor argument.

Good luck in your hunt for the "magic bullet".

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So what would make you believe this round is good? There are already pages full of evidence and facts showing this round is what it is. Physics are at work and show it to be true. No one has claimed this round to be magic, just that it works and posts proving it.

You offer no counter argument on why this round is ineffective and keep claiming it doesn't work and is both silly and irresponsible.

I will ask you this, why exactly is it an ineffective round? What physics apply to your argument and what facts can you provide that support it? I didn't have interest in this round TILL I read THIS thread, I'm not a fanboy but I found a round that seems to offer the most advantages over all other calibers.

 

[481]

So what would make you believe this round is good? There are already pages full of evidence and facts showing this round is what it is. Physics are at work and show it to be true. No one has claimed this round to be magic, just that it works and posts proving it.

Nothing comprehensive, especially from the standpoint of "physics", has been presented in this thread. Physics is always at work. Nothing, though, has been proven as per your claim.

The "evidence", consisting of several third-world newspaper articles, one or two data points and several photos of various game taken with the caliber proves nothing other than that several people "engineered suitable conditions" so that they could employ the round to do what they wanted it to do. It's been done with other calibers before, both rifle and handgun, and it'll be done again when someone else wishes to "prove" that their chosen caliber is the caliber that can "do it all".

Nothing "new" or "ground-breaking" here.

You offer no counter argument on why this round is ineffective and keep claiming it doesn't work and is both silly and irresponsible.

You (and a couple of others here) have made a claim and have yet to substantiate it sucessfully. That failure does not constitute a problem on my behalf.

I never said the round itself is silly/irresponsible- just the mis-applications into which it has been forced. Read what I said again. You misread it.

I will ask you this, why exactly is it an ineffective round? What physics apply to your argument and what facts can you provide that support it? I didn't have interest in this round TILL I read THIS thread, I'm not a fanboy but I found a round that seems to offer the most advantages over all other calibers.

I think that the issues with the round are evident and have been addressed by those who know better about this discipline than anyone else here. They've made their arguments, presented their data and research and provided their insight into its shortcomings in both AP and non-AP iterations.

While it is wonderful that this thread has you excited about this (relatively) new caliber, there are others here who'd prefer something a little more substantial than that before using it in their defense. (or for anything else more serious than punching paper or zapping vermin)

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Honestly, I can't stop anyone from engaging in silly/irresponsible behavior,

Wouldn't that include carrying this gun for self defense, the role this round is aimed at, thus calling the round what you said?

Once again, what would convince you that it's a good round?

 

[Skribs]

How does someone engineer a hunting encounter to make the round look good? I can see the argument that "they shot it with an AR and took the picture with the 5.7" (i.e. "they lied"), but do you think they're making deer with 20% weaker bones and tissue?

I've seen ballistic gel that shows what a 5.7 can do. I also know it has adequate penetration to meet FBI standards with expanding rounds, which means that if you hit accurately with it (which, oh, it does) you meet the two most important spots with a firearm - placement and penetration. Where you place the next three - recoil, caliber, and capacity are up to you, but compared with a 9mm it is vastly superior in recoil and capacity.

The issue then is the size of the bullet, which the 5.7 loses compared with a 9mm. (A yawing 5.7 changes this a bit). However, there is also the shockwave, which - as reliable as it may or may not be for causing permanent trauma - does hit harder than a 9mm.

So...it's got accuracy, penetration, capacity, and manageable recoil over the 9mm. That doesn't make it "magic" but it does make it pretty good.

So, which do you not agree with? The ballistics gel? The hunting photos? The fact that NATO actually approved it as a PDW round? The science saying that in order for TWC to cause permanent damage the bullet needs to be travelling at 2K FPS (and the 5.7 does)?

I don't own a 5.7, but I respect it as a handgun caliber that is capable of doing what the older, fatter cousins do. I can see how one can say, "I don't trust the TWC, and since the 5.7mm is smaller than a 9mm, I feel it is a less effective round, and therefore will stick with my 9." (Or .40, or .45). I don't see how someone can say there is no evidence to prove this is anything more than an expensive .22, anymore than someone can say a .357 is an expensive 9mm.

 

[JHenry]

the 5.7 doesnt performe like other handgun rounds, the bullet is roughly the same size as a 5.56 and reaches velocities much higher than other handguns. If the small bullet/high velocity concept works in rifles, no doubt in my mind it works in a pistol.

The fact of the matter isnt that it underperforms with available ammo, but how well a performance it had to get banned in the first place.

 

[481]

Wouldn't that include carrying this gun for self defense, the role this round is aimed at, thus calling the round what you said?

Once again, what would convince you that it's a good round?

Do you have some sort emotional stock in this that you have to resort to taking out of context what I have said and twisting it into some sort of insult that was never meant?

Such behavior is both rude and unnecesary.

 

[Skribs]

Instead of answering his question you bash him. Good way to show you're right.

 

[481]

Instead of answering his question you bash him. Good way to show you're right.

Really? That's a rude and untrue accusation.

I've already answered his question.

I was unaware that taking my prior statement out of context as being some sort of insult (when it wasn't) was an acceptable argumentative tactic.

I've done nothing to him to merit such treatment.

 

[Tcruse]

Well after 11 pages, it seems that there is lots of interest.
My observations (as a potential buyer) are:
1) The 5.7 depends on very high performance bullets for the impressive results
2) It has some advantages in terms of size and weight
3) Due the the high velocity, it should be accurate out to a longer distance
4) It probably is not "a lot" better than the best 9/40/45 rounds, but good
5) For it to be main stream there needs to be more choices in guns
6) There needs to be low priced range ammo as well as the high performance stuff

For now, I will stay with Glocks, but maybe someday.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

The Inuit practice rapid fire shots at the head with a semi auto .22LR, not a single round like the 5.7 here.



Is that really all you got from that entire post directly?

His main purpose in this thread is to bait and inflame. Based on comments he has made in the past, he is just another follower of the Dental School of Ballistics and really could care less about facts. He scored a nice one with my spelling error though; I'll give him that. As far as his knowledge on the 5.7... not so good.

 

[481]

His main purpose in this thread is to bait and inflame. Based on comments he has made in the past, he is just another follower of the Dental School of Ballistics and really could care less about facts. He scored a nice one with my spelling error though; I'll give him that. As far as his knowledge on the 5.7... not so good.

You seem quite willing to make inflammatory remarks and offer insult whenever someone disagrees with you.

Do you have that little confidence in your position?

 

[JShirley]

Enough.

Believe it's the best thing since sliced bread and nickel beer, or don't.