Soft Points in a 38 spcl?

[KBintheSLC]

I know there are a million 38 spl ammo threads here, but I don't find much about folks using JSP in 38... so I thought I would get your thoughts on...

Recently, I found some S&B 158g JSP in standard pressure 38 spl. They shoot nicely out of my SW 637, and seem to pack a good punch for a non-+P loading. I assume it is due to the fact that the European stuff is generally a bit hotter. However, they do not deliver harsh recoil, and are very manageable to shoot. I am considering using these as my carry load.

But I have to wonder whether a soft point will deform much at such low velocities. I love soft points in a 357 mag, but I wonder about it in a snubbie 38. The S&B site claims about 889 fps for this loading, but does not specify the barrel length. I assume it can't be more than 800 fps out of a sub-2" barrel.

I like the idea of a heavy soft point more than light hallow point in a snubbie 38 since JHP expansion can be patchy. The heavy 158g JSP ought to penetrate pretty well, but will it deform enough to stay inside an average sized body?

What are your thoughts on using JSP's at such velocities? Would I be better off just buying some 158g wad cutters?

 

[earplug]

Testing

You won't know unless you test the load and firearm in some sort of medium.
Drop some big phone books in the bathtub overnight, enough so you get 12-18 inches of phone books and shoot at them with the JSP. Cheap and fast way to get a idea of what the bullet might do in flesh.
If the bullet shape is round, I'd have little faith in them as a carry round.
I'm guessing there sold to accommodate some anti HP law somewhere.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Any idea of a general depth ratio of wet phone books to ordinance gelatin? I have used them to test before, but only in side-by-side comparisons between two or more different loads. I assume they are much higher in density, so they might cause faster and more pronounced deformation than one can expect in real life.

 

[ArmedBear]

Remember: a guy in a motorcycle jacket over a wool shirt in the Winter is going to be different from the same guy in a t-shirt in the Summer.

Ballistic gelatin isn't a true representation of what happens in a real target, whether you're talking about hunting or self-defense. It wears no clothes, and it also has no bones in it. So if you're looking for a "real life" representation, gel isn't exactly perfect either.

My wild, unsubstantiated guess: JSPs might really be worthwhile in cold months outdoors.

 

[rcmodel]

Heres the thing.

If a JHP is chancy, a SP will be more so.

It would be unlikely to open much at snub-nose velocity.
But it would penetrate better then a JHP that did open.

On the otherhand if the JHP does open, it will provide a much more serious wound cavity.

I regard 158 grain JSP as .357 Mag deer hunting bullets.

I'd much rather have a soft lead HP or SWC in a .38 Special snubby for SD use.

rc

 

[MortalWombat]

You can try Buffalo Bore's 150 gr wadcutters. They pack a bit more oomph than a standard target wadcutter.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Maybe I need to make a big batch of pudding, and toss a bunch of old table scraps and bones in there to really see what really happens. My best bet is that there will be some deformation, but not much.

 

[KBintheSLC]

You can try Buffalo Bore's 150 gr wadcutters. They pack a bit more oomph than a standard target wadcutter.

The BB stuff is great... Every loading I have ever bought from them does what they say it will. I need to get my hands on some of it.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

But I have to wonder whether a soft point will deform much at such low velocities.

Even at the higher velocities of the .357 Magnum, JSPs expand very little, beyond mashing the nose over a little bit.

 

[Eb1]

Makes me wonder....

This might be a little off base here, and I know that a 30-30 is traveling 2 to 3 times faster than a .38 or .357, but those rounds have been around for a while. Have the manufacturers not perfected the expansion of their pistol JSPs?

I have recovered some 30-30 bullets (150 grain PP), and they have expanded to .753". I would think that a .357 with a JSP made for it would do the same. I have no experience, but I am trying to add some food for thought here.

 

[rcmodel]

The energy gained from velocity is what causes expansion.

Trying to compare a 30-30 soft-point to a .357 or .38 Spl soft-point is meaningless.

As you noted, the 30-30 bullet is going several times faster then either handgun round.

The minimum velocity for a HP to expand is barely reached with a .38 Special. More so with a .357 before velocity drops too much at longer range.

But the fact remains, a 30-30 SP is still going faster at 400 yards then a .38 Spl or .357 is at the muzzle.

rc

 

[ArmedBear]

2 to 3 times faster

There's your key.

 

[KBintheSLC]

This might be a little off base here, and I know that a 30-30 is traveling 2 to 3 times faster than a .38 or .357, but those rounds have been around for a while. Have the manufacturers not perfected the expansion of their pistol JSPs?

Eb1,

I think they have done pretty well with what they have to work with... especially in the full-house 357 stuff. A 158g JSP out of my 6" GP100 literally explodes to about double the original diameter in a wet mass. However, coming out of a snub-nosed 38 at standard pressure levels, even the softest lead is not likely to open up like the 357 or more-so the 30-30 rifle round.

I will have to do some tests to confirm this, but I assume that deformation of the 38 JSP will be limited. However, even if it just opens up to a .50, that ought to do the job. I would rather have the weight of a 158g, than the velocity of a HP 125g.

 

[Eb1]

I understand, and have mentioned that the speed is 2 -3 times faster, but I was attempting to understand that with lead softness and hardness along with a jacket to keep the bullet from rolling back to far. You could assume that over the years the bullets would perform equally as well as a bullet designed for a 30-30, respectfully for the .38 or .357. Possibly having a jacketed soft point designed for 800 fps out of a 2" barrel versus using a bullet desinged to be used for a .357 and .38. I know I am treading in waters I know not much about, but this is the learning process is it not?

The 30-30 is the only round I could think of to compare because of age, and the fact that it doesn't take premium bullets to get excellent expansion and penetration.

Apples to Oranges it maybe, but if you can broaden your outlook, it really isn't. I was speaking of age old bullet technology being refined over years to work in the caliber it was created for without the need for a premium bullet.

 

[rcmodel]

You could assume that over the years the bullets would perform equally as well

I think the point you are missing is that pure lead can only be so soft, and no softer.

The maximum speed you can reach with a .38 Spl, and the very minimum speed it takes to deform a lead bullet are very close to the same.

That is why the hollow-point pistol bullet expands fairly well and the soft point doesn't at the same speed.

Vast strides have been made in pistol bullet design & performance in just the last 20 years. But until they find something softer then lead of the same weight for bullets, there will be no miracles forthcoming in SP pistol bullet expansion at .38 Spl velocity.

rc

 

[Eb1]

Thanks, rc.

 

[BigGuy52]

Just for my two cents worth. I also have a S&W model 637. I've read a lot of ballistic charts and I prefer Corbon DPX in .38spl + P as my defense load.

Hornady came out with a new bullet design called 'Critical Defense' for the .38spl + P crowd. The bullet supposedly will penetrate heavy layers of denim and then the bullet expands. The big visual difference is the bullet tip has a soft rubber tip. Hornady has also introduced the bullet design for .357mag and .44mag, mainly advertised as bullets for lever rifles.

I have yet had the chance to try out the ammo though.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Big Guy,

Have you ever had issues with the internal lock using that hot Corbon load? I am still trying to decide on removing the lock. I would feel better about using hot ammo if it was gone.

I have to admit, I am very intrigued by the Hornady C.D. bullet design. I just wish it came in a heavier bullet. 110 grains concerns me at these low velocities. If they made one in 150g-158g and loaded it to 800 fps in a 2" barrel, I would be sold.

 

[BigGuy52]

No, I haven't had any problems as of yet. I've shot around 300 rounds of the Corbon DPX from my snubby.

My only problem is that the stout recoil made my wedding band cut into my right ring finger. I fixed that by buying shooting gloves. They make it much more comfortable to shoot

 

[GRIZ22]

You might get some expansion from a JSP. The core is lead vs a harder alloy with a RN or SWC. A JHP will give you more and more reliable expansion than a JSP, everything being equal.