Soot on outside of case

[LeftyTSGC]

OP never stated what firearm he was using.

I see this effect, but only when I shoot the same loads in my JRC Carbine which uses a blowback system, which means you would want a faster burning powder or you will see soot.

I use BE-86 in my pistols with no soot, but as soon as I shoot the same ammo in my JRC, its all sooty. But still works great.

All the information from others above is correct, you just have to figure it out, powder, bullet seating, firearm one of these adjustments will fix it.

 

[markr6754]

My general rule when looking for a problem like the OPs. The small amount of powder used may not need a mag? Something to try to raise pressure.
The 9mm +P maximum loads run as 38,500 PSI.

But neck tension, bullet hold needs to be checked first.
Test- measure the case before and after seating a bullet. After seating, the outside diameter should increase by a minimum of .002" With this problem , more is better, up to .004" should be ok? To much and bullet diameter may get smaller. Mostly soft lead bullets.

Seating the bullet deeper may help increase pressure.

View attachment 913387

The chart tells it all, it you need to include the footnotes in your comments. i.e. Small Pistol Magnums - For HEAVY loads using ball powder, not ALL loads. And then the footnote: Safety Note: Use Magnum primers ONLY when specified in published load data.

So basically...don’t use magnum primers for ball powders unless you’re told to by a published source.

 

[rfwobbly]

Going to work some up to 5.7gr, crimp a little more and drop the OAL down to 1.110".

STOP !

► Taper Crimp has absolutely NOTHING to do with bullet retention ! Bullet retention is set by the diameter of the case mouth before the bullet is seated, therefore bullet retention is set by the diameter of the Expander. If you are concerned about bullet retention, then check the inside diameter of the case mouth just BEFORE the bullet is seated. The proper ID of the case is generally 0.002 to 0.004" smaller than the bullet's OD. Your calipers are your friend.

► Taper Crimp is only used to erase the belling from the case mouth. If you need to know the proper diameter for Taper Crimp, then slowly and very carefully seat a bullet into a Sized and Expanded but NOT "belled" case, and then measure the finished case mouth diameter. (This is very easy to do with Berry bullets owing to a generous radius on the bullet's base.) That finished case mouth diameter is the same dimension your Taper Crimp die should be placing on your (average) finished production cartridges. No more and No less.



► IME, adding more Taper Crimp than necessary will generally buckle the case... which loosens (not tightens) the grip of the case on the bullet. Which, come to think of it, could be your exact problem right now.

► You never told us how long you've been reloading for auto pistol. This is something we need to know.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep, more crimp won't help. Many .45 ACP loads have some soot on the cases. Not that much though.

 

[243winxb]

The chart tells it all

Yes it does. Follow load data exactly. No exceptions. (So i don't get sued)

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer.
from a CCI employee.

 

[packetloss]

OP never stated what firearm he was using.

I see this effect, but only when I shoot the same loads in my JRC Carbine which uses a blowback system, which means you would want a faster burning powder or you will see soot.

I use BE-86 in my pistols with no soot, but as soon as I shoot the same ammo in my JRC, its all sooty. But still works great.

All the information from others above is correct, you just have to figure it out, powder, bullet seating, firearm one of these adjustments will fix it.

I tested these rounds in two different Sigs. P228 and a P320 full size.

 

[packetloss]

STOP !

► Taper Crimp has absolutely NOTHING to do with bullet retention ! Bullet retention is set by the diameter of the case mouth before the bullet is seated, therefore bullet retention is set by the diameter of the Expander. If you are concerned about bullet retention, then check the inside diameter of the case mouth just BEFORE the bullet is seated. The proper ID of the case is generally 0.002 to 0.004" smaller than the bullet's OD. Your calipers are your friend.

► Taper Crimp is only used to erase the belling from the case mouth. If you need to know the proper diameter for Taper Crimp, then slowly and very carefully seat a bullet into a Sized and Expanded but NOT "belled" case, and then measure the finished case mouth diameter. (This is very easy to do with Berry bullets owing to a generous radius on the bullet's base.) That finished case mouth diameter is the same dimension your Taper Crimp die should be placing on your (average) finished production cartridges. No more and No less.

View attachment 913398

► IME, adding more Taper Crimp than necessary will generally buckle the case... which loosens (not tightens) the grip of the case on the bullet. Which, come to think of it, could be your exact problem right now.

► You never told us how long you've been reloading for auto pistol. This is something we need to know.

Hope this helps.
.

I had been pretty careful about doing the crimp. I really don't think it's a crimp issue.

With that being said, I've been reloading for over 15 years and never had this issue with 9mm before. However, I never used CFE pistol or Berry plated bullets before. I had always used Bullseye and FMJ. Just couldn't get any of my usual stuff now.

 

[243winxb]

Berry plated bullets

https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq
Never used them. But find them interesting.

 

[Dudedog]

Other than soot on the cases nothing bad is going to happen.

Some of my lighter 9mm loads end up with soot on the cases, as long as they shoot fine I don't worry about.
The brass cleans up.

 

[walterelm]

Not enough powder ... not enough crimp

But: if the precision is fine ... who cares ...

 

[rfwobbly]

Going to work some up to 5.7gr, crimp a little more and drop the OAL down to 1.110".

I had been pretty careful about doing the crimp. I really don't think it's a crimp issue. I've been reloading for over 15 years and never had this issue with 9mm before.

Sir, we only know what you tell us. And you told us you were going to add more crimp. I'm simply responding to that statement.

Whenever I ask for help, I always prepare myself to be told a new bit of information that changes my perspective on the problem. Even me with degrees, awards, and patents can still learn something new at least once a day. If you don't believe me, just ask my wife !

So if you'd like to provide your case ID dimension and your finished taper crimp diameter, then we could possibly finish this investigation that much sooner.

All the best.

 

[Prowler53]

I have the exact same thing happen and It's only with CFE-Pistol. 5.2-5.3 grains with berry's 124 RN's. 1.135 oal. I have some Hornady XTP's loaded up with CFE-P that I have not tried yet, going to see if I get the same results.

 

[Bfh_auto]

CFE Pistol is one of my favorite powders. My loads are pretty hot on most of my cartridges but I never noticed the soot problem. But then, I only load jacketed bullets. I'll pay attention next time for sure.

It's definitely a good hot rod powder. I noticed sit like the OP with cast loads until I ran above 75%.
I like it in 40s&w with 165s.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

OP you mentioned you use to use Bullseye, that is a very fast burning powder, one of the fastest for handguns. Now you use CFE pistol? That is one of the slowest around HS-6 and Winchester AutoComp. Those are extremes. So it may just be that CFE powders for what you are trying to do will soot based on using the same exact setting you had for Bullseye, you will need to adjust something to change it.

 

[packetloss]

I upped the loads on my next batch and they were a lot better. Not as clean as my old loads or factory loads but they were much more acceptable. I appreciate all the advice. I might keep working them up a bit more and see if I can get them cleaner.

 

[packetloss]

Sir, we only know what you tell us. And you told us you were going to add more crimp. I'm simply responding to that statement.

Whenever I ask for help, I always prepare myself to be told a new bit of information that changes my perspective on the problem. Even me with degrees, awards, and patents can still learn something new at least once a day. If you don't believe me, just ask my wife !

So if you'd like to provide your case ID dimension and your finished taper crimp diameter, then we could possibly finish this investigation that much sooner.

All the best.

Absolutely. I had never realized low pressure could cause this, since I never experienced it before with what I had been using and never read about it before.

My taper crimp was .377

The factory loads were .379 and my old loads with bullseye were .377

 

[rfwobbly]

Absolutely. I had never realized low pressure could cause this, since I never experienced it before with what I had been using and never read about it before.

My taper crimp was 0.377" . The factory loads were .379 and my old loads with bullseye were 0.377" .

• As has been pointed out. Brass is the ultimate cartridge case material do to its ability to expand and contract easily. During powder ignition, the mouth of the case expands to seal against the chamber wall. This act focuses all the gas toward pushing the bullet down the barrel, and protects the shooter. Evidence of soot on the sides of the brass simply means the chamber pressure never met the minimum pressure threshold for that particular powder. If you'll clean your cases and reload at successive 0.1gr increases, you'll be able to see the soot recede closer to the case mouth, and then finally stop all together.

• Your taper crimp of 0.377" sounds perfect. Because taper crimp is to satisfy the chamber, and not any aspect of the cartridge itself. You can lock the Taper Crimp Die down at that location and not need to change it again.

Hope this helps.

 

[SlowFuse]

You've received good info here.

In my experience CFE-P likes to be ran on the upper end of load data. Also have found that a heavier bullet works better. I've used 130 grain Win flat nose FMJ's (38 super bullet) with CFE in 9mm loads with great results.

 

[Toprudder]

That's part of your problem. Berry has the thickest plating around, so it's more like loading a jacketed bullet. They used to explain all that in their FAQ section, but now it's been removed. I don't know why. If you were shooting Ranier or Xtreme then your assumption might hold true.
.

I’ve heard that if you call Xtreme and ask, they recommend using Speer TMJ data, which are plated. I’ve been using that advice for a long time, and find that it correlates well with my results with plated bullets. I just checked the online Speer data, and they list up to 5.7gn for 115 TMJ seated to 1.135”.

 

[Toprudder]

I see this effect, but only when I shoot the same loads in my JRC Carbine which uses a blowback system, which means you would want a faster burning powder or you will see soot.

That is common with blow-back actions. The case has less chance of sealing since it is already being extracted from the chamber before the pressure has dropped.

 

[VandalBC]

My daughter uses 4.8 Grs. of CFE Pistol with a 125Gr RN from Precision bullets for competition in her G34 with a Faxon barrel and they work fine, no soot noticeable on the brass. She switched to the CFE from Sport Pistol because it smokes less. On those days with still heavy air clouds of smoke at the end of your barrel can obscure your sight of the target.

 

[Zendude]

I like to use fast burning pistol powders for this reason. It is not as sensitive to small variations in crimp. I don’t load to achieve a certain power factor for competition though.