Start Now - Spreading The Word

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TEX, my view is that you are in error

A vote for Bush is a vote in support of what he has done which hardly is in support of liberty. As far as Dem's and Repub's, there is little difference as each has a fundamental belief in the concept of government rule which translates into constantly increased government (less freedom). The only real difference is in their preference for which area of your life they choose to dominate. You must also consider that the politicians are a reflection of the values of the voters, and the Dem's and Repub's are what most voters want, i.e, most voters do not understand, not do they want freedom, but rather government rule.

When I read your post I thought of a scene out of the tv series "Roots" where the runaway slave was given the choice of having half his foot cut off or some of his private parts cut off in punishment for seeking freedom. You are in effect saying, choose or else someone else will choose for you, yet both the choices are abhorant and both will lead to a significant loss. Neither is acceptable, so I either stay home or vote Libertarian.

In reality, it is all of little consequence. The die is already cast and little can be done. We are truly headed for civil war, about 2020 if not earlier. This is for two significant reasons; the first is that every 80+ years or so we hit a crisis point which ends in a major, nation threatening conflict (1776, 1861, 1939, 2020?); two of the last three have been civil conflict. This goes much farther back in Western history, and it is a cyclical/generational thing as described in the book, "The Fourth Turning." There is a yet more compelling reason that civil disorder is in the cards and that is the economic decline that will follow peak oil, estimated to occur this decade. The carrying capacity of this planet for human beings has been artificially extended beyond the norm by use of stored energy; this expansion went parabolic beginning in the early part of the 20th century and had a lifetime of about 100 years (1930 to 2030) so we should be back at the 1930 living standard by 2030. Think of it as the Titanic with lifeboats only for 1/3 of us, and imagine the squabble over who gets a seat.

I cannot think of a more compelling reason to own a good variety of guns for personal protection.
 
Someone please explain to me how a vote for Bush is any different than a vote from Kerry.

Save the chest-thumping "I bleed Republican" crap and give me good reasons. Don't tell me about how Kerry is a liberal and will thus drive up budget deficits, increase bloated social services, and fail to protect the borders -- we have all that now.

Ask yourselves which you want to arrive the fastest: the police state or the welfare state?
 
I've neither seen nor experienced anything that suggest's GWB's America
is a police state. Everything I've seen and heard of John Kerry suggests
that his America will be a police AND a welfare state.
 
Voting for a third party is more like a kid refusing to eat when he knows his food has been poisoned.

Which is worse? Gun control or the Patriot Act? Cut off your arm or your leg?

Maybe we should have two votes. One that doesn't count for anything, where people can feel free to choose who they think would be best, and the other that's the real vote that counts, where they can vote for the winner. Probably wouldn't do any good.

If you participate in a poll, it might be worth telling them who you really think would be best, since it doesn't really count. You can always change your mind when it's time for the real vote. Maybe if the polls showed a large count for a third party, more people would feel safer voting for a winner.

I think this article on third parties is worth reading:

http://www.reformparty.org/documents/misc/timeforreform.html
 
nukes

The only issue for me is, which candidate will reduce the chance of nuclear terrorism. Sadly, Bush is the only one. Kerry seems to have no foreign policy except appeasment, and the LP can't win.
 
"On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The
people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

"I did," said Ford. "It is."

"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong
lizard might get in."

-- Douglas Adams, _So Long and Thanks for All the Fish_
 
Spreading the word

The lesser of two evils is still evil. Bush has conducted an executive power grab and attack on civil liberties since 9/11 that is as significant as any in our history. Do I believe Kerry would be better? No. But I'll abstain before I commit my vote, and my moral support, to George W. Bush.

Ditto.

I'll vote for Bush if he gives me a chunk of that $200M he's expected to have to bankrolled to "get/buy" votes, and I don't want a big chunk.
 
Don't forget that Perot very likely cost Bush senior his second term and put Clinton in office.
NO. Bush Sr. cost Bush Sr. his second term, by not giving those people who went and voted for Perot what they wanted. If you're fired by your boss because you simply weren't doing your job to his satisfaction, who is to blame? The American people are the 'boss' of the President. Apparently, they didn't like what Bush Sr. was doing well enough to keep him around. His fault. Nobody else's.

As for those of you who havn't ever met any Libertarian-leaning Democrats? What is the predominant party in your area? If the vast majority of people you know are Republican, then of course you're that much less likely to meet a Libertarian-leaning Democrat. Where I'm at, its Democrat-central, and I assure you, I know plenty of Libertarian-leaning Democrats. Most of my friends, in fact. :( (Generally ones who thought they liked Democrats because of their support for personal freedoms, rather than for their fiscal "policy".)

The only issue for me is, which candidate will reduce the chance of nuclear terrorism. Sadly, Bush is the only one.
Wow, I missed this. What exactly did Bush do to lessen the threat of nuclear terrorism? Geigercounters every 5 feet the length of the entire national border?
 
"Bush is the only choice"

For gunowners, this time around.:D

I agree with gunsmith, but most of y'all know that by now:) .

Moparmike is right as well:
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"But you* should respect my right to vote for whom I believe in too."
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I hope enough folks vote for Bush to keep Kerry out of the Whitehouse.
 
The E word

Ahh, Kerry. Sort of like a Clinton-lite. I was really hoping Dean would sweep it. I didn't agree with a lot of what he said. But at least I knew his convictions were his own and not formed by poll results and policy committees. But it's not about conviction, is it?

It's about ELECTABILITY.

Of course, GW Bush is a GHW Bush-lite, himself. Senior at least seemed to have experience and beliefs. GWB is a shadow of his father, and Senior wasn't exactly one of the greats ones, either.

It's kind of like being told you have to eat another person's feces, but you get to choose between two steaming piles of different origin.

Libertarian is looking better and better. And if that counts as a vote against King George so be it.

:(
 
Besides being "a Democrat" (oh my!), what is so bad about Kerry? What policies has he announced that he will try and pass? I don't think he (like most Democrats) are going to be pressing after the gun issue as much, as it is a loosing issue that costs them votes but doesn't exactly gain them anything. Mostly I've seen that the first term a president serves doesn't really matter- they don't introduce any radical policies, as they don't want to fall out of favor with the people- their only goal is to get re-elected.
 
"what is so bad about Kerry"

:what:

:eek:

At a loss for words....



The_Antibubba:

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"Libertarian is looking better and better. And if that counts as a vote against King George so be it."
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Everyone ought to vote their conscience for sure.....

But 'King George' has been dead for some time now... even George VI ;)

I suppose that'd be no worse than some of the precinct votes in Chicago, though:)
 
Wow, I missed this. What exactly did Bush do to lessen the threat of nuclear terrorism? Geigercounters every 5 feet the length of the entire national border?

Well. Now which North African country recently gave up their nuclear ambitions, and why? Which Central Asian country ruled by Islamic fanatics stopped providing haven for Al Qaida, and why? Which nuclear engineer working for a Central Asian country which already HAS nukes has been forced to stop selling plans to fanatic Islamic countries, was arrested, and why?

The job isn't done, by a long shot, but it has to be by someone. So far no one else is stepping up to the plate, so it has to be the US. War has been declared against the United States by a variety of Islamic groups, they have killed thousands of Americans already, and they would just LOVE to kill a lot more of us if they could. We know they have been trying to get nukes for a long time. I sure hope to GOD (that's a prayer, not a swear) they never do get nukes, or 9/11 will become a footnote. Some people seem to have their heads buried in the sand.
 
Sorry, natedog....

"I'm not saying Kerry would get my vote (if I had one),but I'm just wondering what is evil about him, besides the fact that he's a Democrat."
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My response earlier was not very informative.

THR is a very 'firearms-oriented" place.

Some of us are a bit "single issue" focused on the Second Amendment and the RKBA.

John Kerry, in his 19 years in the Senate, has voted for nearly every piece of anti-gun legislation introduced.

Just recently, to reaffirm his support for anti-gun legislation, he took the time off from campaigning to reappear in the Senate and vote for the anti-gun amendments which assured the death of S. 1805, which would have protected gun manufacturers against frivolous lawsuits brought against them for the criminal misuse of their lawfully manufactured products.

Kerry's record is also very poor on supporting national defense.
 
because Bush signed the Patriot Act.......no. If he didn't do that or had it repealed, he might have vote...not anymore...

DB
 
Which is worse? Gun control or the Patriot Act?

False Delima ... do you honestly think that President Gore would have vetoed the Patriot Act?

I'm not convinced that right after 9/11 if we had a Libertarian in the whitehouse that we'd still wouldn't have got the Patriot Act.


So with Kerry you get Gun control and the Patriot Act.


As for those of you Libertarians who don't believe that a vote for the Libertarian candidate is a defacto vote for Kerry; who would you vote for if all the Libertarian candidates had heart attacks and dropped dead two weeks before the election? I seriously doubt it would be for Kerry.



But all that said, if Kerry gets in the white house its not going to be the end of America. Remember Republicans control the house and senate (hell, maybe the Republicans in the house and senate will start acting like Republicans if they have an enemy in the whitehouse)
 
Thanks, Zundfolge....

"Remember Republicans control the house and senate (hell, maybe the Republicans in the house and senate will start acting like Republicans if they have an enemy in the whitehouse)"
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That's a cheering thought......I think.

I wouldn't trust Kerry with the power of executive order.:eek:


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"do you honestly think that President Gore would have vetoed the Patriot Act?
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It would have had some "anti-gun" riders attached as well.

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"I'm not convinced that right after 9/11 if we had a Libertarian in the whitehouse that we'd still wouldn't have got the Patriot Act."
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Politics being politics, some sort of "Patriot Act" would have happened.


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"So with Kerry you get Gun control and the Patriot Act."
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Exactly!

And some sort of "U.S./UN Transfer of Authority Act". no doubt.:mad:
 
But all that said, if Kerry gets in the white house its not going to be the end of America. Remember Republicans control the house and senate (hell, maybe the Republicans in the house and senate will start acting like Republicans if they have an enemy in the whitehouse)

But if Kerry gets elected, the Republicans may also no longer have a hold on the Senate. There is only a thin margin, with 34 Senate seats on the election block; a Kerry election may well drag a majority of Democrats into the Senate. If that happens, President Kerry may get to appoint the next generation of our judiciary. Any thoughts on what that would do to our gun rights?

Calling Bush "the lesser of two evils" is also disingenuous. Sure, he's done a bunch of things with which we disagree. But we all can speculate on the situation we'd be in had Gore won, and anticipate our predicament under President Kerry. And I'll be damned if I'll shoot myself in the foot to convince the Republicans of the error of their ways.

When the Libertarians produce a credible candidate for President, I'll vote for that candidate. Until then, I'll stick with the candidate most likely to keep the enemies of the USA at arm's length.
 
I doubt it would have been any better with Gore. That's kind of the point, all of the republican and Democrat presidential candidates seem to be about the same.

I'm not sure I'll vote libertarian. I'm also considering Peroutka. We need a strong man with integrity that believes in the constitution. I think Peroutka comes across as being stronger than Nolan or Badnarik. It's still early, though.

http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0404/south-carolina-lp_dinner.html
 
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