Starting up 3-gun program?

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CZ52GUY

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Hi,

Our club has been doing defensive pistol matches for some time, largely based on the IDPA format. We began doing some carbine matches in 2005 (adaptation of IDPA format segregating only optics and irons). Toward the middle of this past year some "rumblings" occurred which caused us to consider 3-gun as a possible additon to our practical shooting offerings. We invited a competition shooter with some experience (Regional Champion) to teach an introductory class.

We've started slow because we really don't have a shotgun program, no trap range, and typically shotgun has been isolated to minimal self-supervised practices.

For the past few weeks we've taken some baby steps with some group practices that included shotgun, so that our core group of RO's can get the feel of the nuances of officiating a match that includes shotguns. We're really at the very beginning of that learning process, and I expect that during the first part of '07, we'll continue experimenting and learning with a smaller group (largely RO's) so that we can build up some hands on experience.

However, I'm VERY interested in any constructive feedback from those that have been part of building, or are currently part of a more mature 3-gun format.

We'd like to start out non-affilliated, try to keep it simple. Something like "Production" vs. Open for class divisions, so that the Tec-Loaders and Magazine fed shottys are lumped in, and the tube fed pump/semi's can play together. I'm not sure optics vs. irons makes too much of a difference because at the outset, we probably won't be shooting much beyond 25yds (facility limitations).

I'd think a stage with birdshot on Steel and a stage with slugs on cardboard would be the most likely starting point. I'd think a 2/2/2 Pistol/Carbine/Shotgun mix is a good starting goal. At first, I'd like to see us avoid multi-gun stages and work up to them once we have a better feel for running a match with this format.

Accommodations at the waiting area for multiple long guns needs to be considered, the requirement of a sling (or lack thereof), suitable chamber flag for shotty...there is much to consider from a "match management" perspective.

I want it to be safe, fun, and challenging for those who pay to play. I want it to be safe and manageable for the staff.

This is my current mindset, but I'm very open to constructive feedback from those who have gone down this road before. We're not looking to host a sanctioned Regional event in our first year, just trying to carefully put down a foundation we can build on.

Thanks in advance,

CZ52'
 
We've been going back and forth via PM, but this was my opinion about transitions with long guns, tac slings vs. putting them down:

we went with always providing a table at any spot where they need to transition so they can put their gun down.

We had a lot of debate about slings. I thought that they should be allowed, but I was out voted. Too many worries about safety and breaking the 180.

Personally I have no problem placing a hot weapon down on the table. It isn't going to go off by itself. And as long as the SO is careful to go back and make sure that all weapons are clear, there are no safety concerns.

My problem with unloading a hot weapon to place it down is a safety one. Unloading on the clock seems like a great way for people to try to rush, screw up, and hurt themselves. Kind of like speed reholstering. There is no real reason to do it.
 
I attend what is called IPSC 101. Its not offical but people follow the same rules and the course is different every time. One such match was the introduction of a shotgun station. The unloaded shot gun was placed at the station where it was to be used and the ammo was beside the gun. You had 5 rounds for 5 targets. Once the five rounds were fired the weapon was cleared and set back down and then you moved to the next station.

While this is not what you probably were looking for it is an example of how our group intergated a shotgun station into the regular match. It was a first also so extra time was spent on the safety angle before the match started.
 
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re:Replies

Thanks,

I'm actually open to many variations of approach to 3-gun, and while I don't want to get wrapped around the axle on multi-gun stages (which is why I'm likely to postpone them until we've gotten our feet wet), I am very interested in how that could evolve.

There are a core group of guys that I practice with regularly. I'd like to experiment with some of these ideas with them before springing it on a broader audience.

Please, all constructive feedback is welcome...I'll take all the good advice I can get!!

Thanks in advance,

CZ52'
 
We've been running multi-gun matches for a while now. Here are some random notes:

* when not under the direct of an RO, long-guns are carried either in a closed case, or with their action locked open, muzzle straight up or down.

* shotgun targets include falling plates (IPSC style), and you can set poppers to be hard to tip to make in interesting. we also use clay birds on post-stands. slugs targets are either sturdy steel plates (min distance 50 yards) or IPSC paper

* we rarely "require" a sling on long-guns, simply because we allow them to set them down on a piece or carpet, table, tire, etc, "if" they have to transition to another weapon (I know you said you wanted to avoid multi-gun stages for now)

* common divisions: basically "limited" and open. Limited = no ports, no optics, no more than 9 rounds in the gun. despite some complaints, pump shotguns are not really slower than autos-- it's about loading and moving.

* to make it interesting, arrange the stage such that they might have to select load slugs at some point. in that case, the best way to shoot is to load the slug with one shot target remaining, in order to not be required to jack out any live rounds-- but the shooter can choose to do that or shoot an extra shot round.
 
re: Thanks Zak!

Great feedback!

I'm not opposed to multi-gun in principle. I just understand the realities at my club and want to take things slow.

I do want to practice some of these ideas with a smaller group. We've taken some tiny steps by trying a small stage which transitioned from pistol (at slide-lock) to Rifle (prepositioned on table, unloaded, action up with loaded mag' in close proximity).

I'm curious what accommodations you make at the Bays for temporary long gun storage? It would seem that having some long gun racks would be worthwhile.

I like the idea of the select load, especially on a single paper target. If they mess up and go with shot on paper at a reasonable distance, it's 50-60 cents of cardboard that needs to be replaced. If they go slug on steel set up for shot...it could get ugly, and expensive.

I'm curious what you stipulate for administrative unload of shotgun. Do you let them dump live shells in the dirt, or do you make them pull it off the extractor (from the chamber) and work the lever to empty the magazine tube?

Thanks in advance,

CZ52'
 
As for multi-gun stages with weapon transitions, here's how we do it: guns can be staged or "left" hot with safety on as long as they are in a stable position and neither the shooter nor the RO will be ever go in front of them.

For example, we might start with a hot shotgun on a table (safety on, point downrange), 20 yards down a bay, and the shooter might start back at the 50 yard line shooting rifle. He might proceed forward but not past a fault line at the table engaging rifle targets, once he gets to the table, he puts his rifle on safety, puts on table facing downrange, and picks up shotgun to engage the rest of the targets. We usually stipulate the ditched gun must be empty OR safety on.

It's also OK to leave this position and proceed to another position, leaving a hot weapon, as long as, again, nobody will go past the ditched weapon's "180".

Requiring unloading on the clock in order to only ditch "empty" weapons causes more problems than it solves, in most cases. For example, at SMM3G 2004, one of the biggest complaints AND causes of DQ's was due to the speed-unload requirements.

I would apply the same logic to hot reloads. It's not really any more unsafe than anything else we're doing, and just emphasize that nobody do anything faster than they can be safe. We've been hot reholstering at major matches for years and it's OK.

There's no reason you have to do it this way, and defaulting to more conservative protocols may be a good way to start.



For general long-gun storage in a bay, just say they have to stay in their cases along the side of the bay until the shooter's turn is called. An alternative is to have a vertical gun rack, but then you need to have them, and set them up for the match & tear down, etc.


With regard to administrative unloading-- By this I take it you mean after the "Unload and Show Clear" command, when they are done shooting and after the time has stopped. In this case, they can do whatever they need to do to unload the shotgun safely. The most common method that people use is to just rack out rounds until the shotgun is empty, letting them hit the dirt. The RO visually verifies the empty chamber and that he can see the tube follower, and that's it.


We commonly have stages start out with 2-4 slug targets, and then have the shooter proceed forward through some barricades to shoot the rest of the shot targets. This simplifies the loading problem and is helpful for new shooters. Shotgun stages require the most complex planning and "remembering" of the 3Gun guns, so don't overwhelm new shooters.

Another thing we do to help stage turn-around time is to "pre load" the next shooter. We do this by using a table set up off to the side of the berm, just behind the start position. An auxilliary RO is responsible for superivision the next shooter in line as he loads his shotgun, and puts the safety on. The shotgun is kept pointed straight into the berm and under RO supervision at all times. Only the next shooter, aux RO, and the shotgun (and ammo) are at the table (so it doesn't get crowded). This can dramatically improve shooter-to-shooter lag.
 
re: Zak

Thanks Again!

Given the attendance at our matches vs. the size of waiting area...we'll have to figure best approach. I would think alignment of stages in such a way that physical proximity of long guns would help (e.g. Stage 1, Stage 2 shotgun physically next door to each other, Stage 3, Stage 4 Rifle, etc.).

When you pre-load next shooter, are you loading tube/magazine, or chamber also? I would think that loading the tube first, then "topping off" at the line would make some sense. I have noticed in our practice sessions that it is awkward to load the tube without the "accessories" (e.g. side-saddle, arm band, bandoleer, speed strips, etc.), and it's desirable to keep those accessories loaded up for mid-stage reloads vs. the initial load.

It would seem that table alignment for "abandoned long guns" would require much horizontal movement as part of the stage design. I'd also think that auxilliary RO's would need to be available to carefully supervise the pre-placement of any firearm and ensure that the integrity of the 180 is maintained. Similarly, after the stage is done extra help in making sure all weapons are appropriately cleared, and taken off the range in a safe manner would be useful.

It appears that administrative functions (e.g. unloading, re-holstering, etc.) are best done off the clock when feasible. It may be that an ideal stage design includes a Part 1/Part 2 component with separate times recorded...almost like multiple strings in a standards stage.

The challenge of keeping things moving along to avoid the dreaded "backed up stage" is also something to be considered.

Thanks for all the great feedback...as expected, much to chew on...

Safe shooting,

CZ52'
 
We preload the tube and the chamber, set the safety on, and keep it under direct RO supervision.

For pre-placement, we usually just have the primary RO walk the shooter to the pre-stage locations, have him load up, place it, and then walk back to the start position to finish LAMR with the first gun.

We basically never split up multigun stages into multipe strings, but we do sometimes do standards.

A good and easy to set up drill is an "El Presidente du Muerte" where you start with pistol, do a regular El Prez. Safe pistol and place on table. Next take the rifle and shoot an el-prez with head shots only (2, 2, 2, reload, 2, 2, 2) on the same targets as the pistol. Finally, have 12 shotgun falling plats, 6 on each side of the IPSC target array, shoot 6 on one side, load at least 1 round, then shoot the other 6 on the other side. When done with a gun, it it just placed on the table in front of the shooter (safety or empty) and the nex weapon is picked up or drawn. There's no need to mandate an weapon shooter order. All weapons start hot, safety on.
 
re: El Prez' Variant

Very cool on the El Prez' stage.

I believe our club would have strong objections to the "pre-load" approach you describe. Not trying to be critical, just realistic.

There is much to absorb...I think select load sequence is a big factor for us, number of RO's required to do it right and keep things moving. Getting into multi-gun will take some time. It will likely evolve differently because of the "cultural norms" at our club vs. others (which is unavoidable, I don't know if any two clubs do it exactly the same).

I do think you've provided great fodder to get us started...the wheels are turning, and I expect to check back from time to time to pass on what we've learned.

I'm still very interested in additional feedback from others who would like to weigh in...there's generally value in getting different perspectives, which is why I posted in the first place.

Thanks again,

CZ52'
 
One thing I will recommend, and this has helped us greatly. Get as many of your shooters to travel to other club's matches as possible. They will come back with great ideas.

If possible, travel to some of the bigger national matches and see how they run things. I love going to other clubs shoots and stealing their ideas. :)
 
Yeah, there's always a push/pull between what the local range is comfortable with, and what we want to do. At some ranges, we can't shoot into the side berms.. at others, we can shoot from moving vehicles.

I think that running single-weapon stages will simplify things a lot and a lot of the multi-gun things will just become obvious after some of this is under your belt.

Good luck!
 
Imitation and flattery

Thanks again guys, yes...I find imitation to be the sincerest form of flattery and lifting stages from many sources is a "best practice" :D.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'
 
I put together a 3-gun club in Southern Colorado back in 2001 with a ton of help from my friends.

The most important part is people. If you dont have a hard core group of people willing to get it done, it doesent matter if you have the best range and best props on the planet.

Run a few matches and let the people decide what they want. We shot a true 3-gun match for two years, then moved to just rifle and shotgun. Then after 6 or so months, we blew off all QCB type stages. It went all 100-400 yard stages.

Then in 2005 we started just rifle matches. All longer range stuff with MOR side matches.

Now, we run MOR stuff even numbered months and normal rifle odd numbered months.

My whole point is let the shooters decide what they want, what suits the range and what the staff can handle.

As far as stuff goes, get some good slug plates and clay bird holders. I like the MGM clay bird flippers but they are nowhere near "tactical" and can present some scoring challenges. I think they are just fun. Dont forget to score some 1 inch wide target tape for slug shots in paper. If you can shoot rifle past 150 yards, get a couple MGM Flash targets. Inside that, all steel gets torn up pretty bad, armor plate or not.

To speed up shotgun stages, consider a preload table. You can learn something from Cowboy shooters...

Our IDPA matches have side matches. We put up a FAQ here. http://coloradoshooting.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3953

Good luck to you.
 
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