Sistema1927
Member
Much ado about nothing.
Stop carrying Winchester Ranger RA9T
- Thread starter Ford
- Start date
- Status
Wait, let me get this straight. You are going to quit carrying Rangers and go back to the Gold Dots because Rangers are marketed as law enforcement ammo?
Perhaps Gold Dots wouldn't be a good choice either since they market it as the top law enforcement duty ammo in the country.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/golddot.aspx
http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?s...speer_Home.asp
http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?s...er_GoldDot.asp
"SPEER® Gold Dot® is designed to deliver the high performance today’s law enforcement officers demand."
"The result is a cartridge that provides officers the ultimate defense in lethal force confrontations."
"That’s why SPEER Gold Dot is the #1 choice for Law Enforcement Professionals."
No LE marketing there.
Winchesters Ranger is marketed by them as Law Enfocement Only. It is not even shown on there regular site. You have to go to there Law Enforcement specific site to view it. Winchester now markets this as a law enforcement only ammunition even though it is legal for civilians to purchase. Unlike speer who just says theres is the #1 choice of law enforcement.
Also, the 3 cases that Ayoob listed in the article where someone had to defend themselves for the TYPE of bullet they used. 2 where found guilty.
I am in no way shape or form saying that I think Winchester Ranger ammo is realy any better or worse than any other ammo out there. Im just saying if the time comes and I have to defend my decision in a trial, whether it be civil or criminal do I really want the added question of ....."so why did you have to use the bullets that when they expand have razor edges that cause more destruction than even a normal hollowpoint bullet." Or something like that.
Now carrying this round may seem logical to you and me. But I deal with alot of ilogical people everyday when it comes to firearms.
Im also not saying that no one should carry it. Im just pointing out that I read an article written by a man who was giving accounts of court cases that he had been part of and It started to make me think.
Perhaps Gold Dots wouldn't be a good choice either since they market it as the top law enforcement duty ammo in the country.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/golddot.aspx
http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?s...speer_Home.asp
http://www.le.atk.com/Interior.asp?s...er_GoldDot.asp
"SPEER® Gold Dot® is designed to deliver the high performance today’s law enforcement officers demand."
"The result is a cartridge that provides officers the ultimate defense in lethal force confrontations."
"That’s why SPEER Gold Dot is the #1 choice for Law Enforcement Professionals."
No LE marketing there.
Winchesters Ranger is marketed by them as Law Enfocement Only. It is not even shown on there regular site. You have to go to there Law Enforcement specific site to view it. Winchester now markets this as a law enforcement only ammunition even though it is legal for civilians to purchase. Unlike speer who just says theres is the #1 choice of law enforcement.
Also, the 3 cases that Ayoob listed in the article where someone had to defend themselves for the TYPE of bullet they used. 2 where found guilty.
I am in no way shape or form saying that I think Winchester Ranger ammo is realy any better or worse than any other ammo out there. Im just saying if the time comes and I have to defend my decision in a trial, whether it be civil or criminal do I really want the added question of ....."so why did you have to use the bullets that when they expand have razor edges that cause more destruction than even a normal hollowpoint bullet." Or something like that.
Now carrying this round may seem logical to you and me. But I deal with alot of ilogical people everyday when it comes to firearms.
Im also not saying that no one should carry it. Im just pointing out that I read an article written by a man who was giving accounts of court cases that he had been part of and It started to make me think.
Scorpiusdeus
member
1) The idea is to be alive to answer at trial if need be, use the best for defense.
2) Dead men tell no tales. If you shoot with a bullet that is more likely to kill then only one person is heard from, you.
Stick with the ammo you are using.
2) Dead men tell no tales. If you shoot with a bullet that is more likely to kill then only one person is heard from, you.
Stick with the ammo you are using.
If you use a rock instead of bullets. Would they investigate the type of rocks texture and the original volcanic activity from which it originated from? I think if it is good enough for the Police then it is good enough for you as well. You are the tax payer with rights who deserves to carry what is with in reason of the law for your own personal protection. No laws are being broken then you should be allowed to carry it. I refuse to be a victim just like the Police do and will use what works not what I hope works.
Mainsail
Member
Well I wasn't carrying them anyway. I'm loading with Federal HSTs.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
FYI Ford, "For Law Enforcement Only" is a marketing scam. The ammo isn't anything unique or special and there is no law against you having it or any restrictions against such ammo other than the standard restrictions of some states like NJ. LEO Only ammo isn't just sold to LEOs, you see. That is the scam.
Think of it as the manufacturer's suggested use that they think a product line is good enough to be trusted by LEOs, even though the ammo is likely no better than other similar lines they offer or other companies offer that are not offered with that moniker.
Your concerns over possible legal problems are silly in this regard.
Think of it as the manufacturer's suggested use that they think a product line is good enough to be trusted by LEOs, even though the ammo is likely no better than other similar lines they offer or other companies offer that are not offered with that moniker.
Your concerns over possible legal problems are silly in this regard.
massad ayoob
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
- Messages
- 374
Ford, I wouldn't worry about carrying "LE-only" jacketed hollowpoints. (Obviously, armor piercing and other prohibited ammo would be another story.) At a Winchester ammo seminar earlier this year, I expressly asked the assembled execs if they had ever heard of a case where an armed citizen's choice of their LEO/Ranger ammo had been used against them in court, and they replied that they had not.
Sir Aardvark
Member
SXT means Same eXact Thing
denfoote
Member
Thanks for the enlightenment, Massad.
I was always of the general impression that you did advocate the use of whatever load local law enforcement used.
I was always of the general impression that you did advocate the use of whatever load local law enforcement used.
Houston Tom
Member
Use what you think is the best round to get the job done. You have to survive in order to get taken to court.
PeacefulWarrior
Member
You have to take anything Massad Ayoob says with a grain of salt......he's a legend in his own mind and thinks he's a lawyer. Use whatever ammo you want in your gun and don't worry about it. Who knows what he'll be telling you to do in next months article.
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
Your personal attack on Massad Ayoob is uncalled for. It's especially nasty because Ayoob hadn't said what you've attacked him for, and because six hours and three messages before you posted the attack he had corrected the original poster's misunderstanding.
If you are worried about being attacked by allegations of carrying ammo that is too effective, I heartily recommend leaving your fireams locked in the safe, unloaded, as mere collector's items. Or better yet, turn them in at a gun "buy-back" so they can be destroyed. Get real. Carrying the same ammo as police has long been promoted by Mas Ayoob as a GOOD thing.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Rather than edit out the ad hominem in post #38 I will just remind members not to engage in such - Mass' - think of him what you will - is a member here and other boards.
Personal attacks are not encouraged. It is not too difficult to simply write that you don't agree with someone.
Personal attacks are not encouraged. It is not too difficult to simply write that you don't agree with someone.
You're gonna get slammed no matter what you do, liberal prosecuting attorneys will attack you no matter what you do, what you used, whether or not your attacker lived or died. If you keep worrying about it you'll drive yourself insane.
Pick one plan, stick with it, work out the legal details later with your lawyer. And above all have the Castle Doctrine in your state.
Pick one plan, stick with it, work out the legal details later with your lawyer. And above all have the Castle Doctrine in your state.
Thanks for the post Massad. I will go ahead with the WInchesters.
Either I was not doing a good joob of getting my point across in my posts or people where just taking things and running with them. Probably a little of both.
Basically my point was after I read your article it just made me think if carrying the Winchester Ranger ammo was worth it versus a more normal type of hollowpoint. Which I am comfortable with anyway because I use Hydra Shocks in my 1911.
So again thanks for the reply.
Either I was not doing a good joob of getting my point across in my posts or people where just taking things and running with them. Probably a little of both.
Basically my point was after I read your article it just made me think if carrying the Winchester Ranger ammo was worth it versus a more normal type of hollowpoint. Which I am comfortable with anyway because I use Hydra Shocks in my 1911.
So again thanks for the reply.
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