Suspect 9mm data from Hodgdon

[Samari Jack]

Beginning to get suspicions of Hodgdon powder's recommended loads for 9mm. Using Universal Clays formula for 115 Grs lead (Berry's plated) bullets of 4.0 to 4.4 GR powder as recommended, my chronograph speeds and recoil was significantly less than the factory loads I used in my comparison. I became suspicious, when my Kahr P-9 had failure to feed issues with approximately 1 out of 10 rounds at 4.0 GR. I chronographed the 4.0 GR at mid 9oo's fps (average 965), 4.4 about 100 fps faster, and factory Speer Lawman 115 GR TMJ (not sure what the "T" stands for) 1170 average. I had no failure to feed issues out of 20 rounds with the 4.4 GR & factory loads but need to test more to feel secure. The recoil was noticeably more with factory loads. In fact, a bit on the uncomfortable side with my boney hand after 20 or so rounds. Caused me to switch to my non-dominate hand.

My Glock 19 eats whatever I put in it, but it is a bit heavier gun. The Kahr in the past has been reliable as well if kept clean. It doesn't like grundge. I carry the Kahr loose in my pocket picking up lint ball and know telling what else out of the bottom of my pocket. I have 2 pocket holsters it would fit in. I'm planning on going back to the holsters just to help keep grundge out. The Glock won't fit in my pocket.

I hesitate to used hotter loads than Hodgdon recommends but failure to feed due to under-powered loads in a CCW weapon doesn't instill confidence.

How can +P 9 mm loads be determined? I can't find any reload data for +P in 9mm.

 

[GLOOB]

Well,
1. Berry's plated shouldn't be loaded using lead data. They specifically recommend low to mid range jacketed data. FTR, I've found this advice to be spot on. Using top end jacketed data is a bit on the hot side for some of my pistols. And using low end lead data has resulted in a couple squibs in cold weather out of my revolver.

2. You are not going to get the same velocity from every powder/bullet combination. You might blow up your gun trying to reach the same velocity as "this here other factory bullet" if you're using a fast powder. If you want more recoil and velocity, you might wanna try a slower powder than Universal Clays. But before you go out and buy a new powder, go back to point #1. Try using starting to mid range jacketed data with those Berry's plated bullets. If they still don't cycle your gun, then you should probably ditch the powder and try something better suited for your application. The chronograph and "felt recoil" doesn't tell you what the peak pressure is doing. A fast powder like the one you're using typically gives you a higher peak pressure for a given velocity and felt recoil.

3. Be safe, and work up your loads for your gun.

4. Universal Clays is for target and plinking ammo. If you want good powerful ammo, try WSF, Unique, AutoComp, or Power Pistol. Wait. Scratch AutoComp. Hodgon's data seems to be off for that caliber, IMO. It's great with charge weights which I won't share, here.

 

[918v]

You can determine whether you're in the +P zone by measuring case expansion relative to how factory ammo expands in your chamber. I have found standard pressure ammo to expand to .391", +P to .393" and +P+ to .395" or so consistently. It is best to use new brass for this and measure the case in several places around it's circumference at the base.

I use this in conjunction with reading primers and published data. It is a pretty good indicator of where I need to stop. The thing is to use the same brass as factory because they are all different in terms of thickness and hardness. Old FC are the softest while Magtech seem super hard.

 

[mgmorden]

Universal Clays is a shotgun powder. It can be used in handgun loads but understand that its a very fast burning powder. Fast powders like this are often used to create very light recoiling loads of moderate velocity (ie, target loads). The pressure spikes to fast too really go to high velocity loads with this type of powder. It's not really that surprising that minimum loads might not cycle in some guns.

If your goal is to get really high velocities and meet or exceed factory speeds at the chrono, then you'll need to go to a slower powder. Try out something like Alliant Power Pistol or Hodgdon HP-38 for those loads.

EDIT: Scratch that. From what I'm seeing despite being a shotgun powder Universal Clays is actually showing up pretty slow in most burn rate charts - close to Alliant Unique. I'd still recommend trying some of the other powders though.

 

[TheCracker]

Universal clays is by far my favorite pistol powder. I've loaded MANY 9mm in jacketed and MBC's lead projectiles without a single problem in my 2 9mm.

Even though I've never loaded plated bullets I would not be afraid to bump up that plated load to the low jacketed charge at all.

Actually last time I looked into plated bullets they were barely cheaper than Precision Deltas115 g FMJ. If u buy them 2k at a time they give you free shipping so there was no need for me to try plated. Actually, buying 2k at a time they are even very close to lead bullets by the time u add shipping. Last time I checked anyway.

 

[Samari Jack]

Great info from all!! I'm not interested in supper hot loads especially. Stuff I've read about Berry's is try to keep speeds under 1200 fps which is fine for my purposes. Reliability is my goal for carry, with comfort secondary for practice but really like to practice with the loads I carry for consistency reasons. I'm anxious to try Berry's HP when they come available. The +P loads would be of interest in my Glock 19 with jacketed hollow points I have from Hornady when I use it for carry. The Kahr is just to small in the grip and light weight for me to shoot with too hot a loads. Instills bad flinch habits when it hurts to shoot.

I'd love to be able to find Glazer type safety slug bullets for reloading but guess I'll have to settle for buying them. They sure are pricey.

I load lead for my 38 specials but haven't in 9mm just because I have a stock Glock barrel.

I have some HP-38 powder used for other calibers but haven't tested it yet in 9mm.

 

[ny32182]

I wouldn't use Berry's plated round nose for carry... is that what you are talking about? It is designed as a budget target bullet; a role it serves quite well, but it is not a carry bullet.

I've only shot about 2k Berry's so far, but they have been just fine for me and I'd buy them again at the right availability/price.

Just for reference, my match load using HS6 is very much on the light side, so when I first got the Berry's, I didn't change anything but the bullet to try them out. The 147gr Berry's picked up about 15 FPS average over the exact same load with a Precision Delta 147gr jacketed. So I wouldn't be scared to work it up as if it was jacketed as long as you are below their velocity recommendations anyway.

 

[Bovice]

Hodgdon data for Universal Clays is way off, on the low side. I tried working up loads using their data, since they made the powder. Nothing worked as well as I wanted it to. Then I looked at the Speer manual. Their data called for higher charges. I'm using that for Universal Clays and NOW it works like it should. Nothing blown up.

I also have a Lee manual, and it seems to be the same as Speer. 2 vs 1, Hodgdon loses.

Universal is not a fast powder.

 

[TonyT]

In my limited experience substituting a plated bullet (Berry's or Rainier) for a lead bullet will provide ca. 100 fps reduction in velocity.

 

[4895]

Blue Dot will give you velocity and pressure and flash and awe.

 

[1SOW]

I wouldn't use Berry's plated round nose for carry... is that what you are talking about? It is designed as a budget target bullet; a role it serves quite well, but it is not a carry bullet.

BUT, 9mm, 40cal and 45 JHPs SD rds are coming this summer.

The 115gr HBRN TP and the 124gr HBRN TP are 'NOW' rated at 1450'/sec for use in 9mm Major PF loads.

The pics and test methods make the new HPs VERY interesting.

 

[Walkalong]

124gr HBRN TP are 'NOW' rated at 1450'/sec

I am shooting that one at a bit over 1300 FPS in .38 Super. Lots of fun and it shoots great. It is almost light when shot in my SA .38 Super. The comp works well with a good dose of 3N37.

 

[Hondo 60]

Speer Lawman 115 GR TMJ (not sure what the "T" stands for)

Total as in Total Metal Jacket

It's Speer's copyrighted terminology for FMJ (full metal jacket)

 

[Samari Jack]

Total as in Total Metal Jacket

It's Speer's copyrighted terminology for FMJ (full metal jacket)

Acronyms!!!
My big pet peeve, but good to have it cleared up.

 

[Bovice]

a TMJ has jacketing on the base of the bullet. a FMJ only has jacketing on the nose and bearing surface, leaving an exposed lead base.

 

[1SOW]

CMJ (Montana Gold) and TMJ are the same: no exposed lead. Required at some indoor ranges.