Swedish 9mm kptr m/39 Bakelite Bullet Pulling

[Mike1943Ret]

Firstly I'm new to the forum and hello to everyone. I'm Mike, retired, and hail from Colorado.

I know there's been a thread or two on the Swedish 9mm kptr m/39 "plastic" bullet training ammo regarding pulling the bakelite bullets and reloading the Norma cases, however I can't find an answer to this question : how do you pull these ?#$@##? bullets? They're seated very tightly and use a lacquer (or possibly just some kind of paint) bullet sealant. There was a post some years ago on THR where a member who had reloaded 30 rounds as a trial and shot them in a Kahr K9 with complete success and asked the same question (about pulling the bullets) of another poster who said he's pulled the same bullets and had the same successful results but he didn't say how he pulled the bullets.

I don't have a kinetic puller nor have I tried to use one reckoning that the bullet would simply be too light for a kinetic to work. I have tried the RCBS collet puller (I use a basic Rock Chucker Supreme setup) and it's a no-go as the hard bakelite bullet either just slips from the collet or fractures off and leaves a stub in the case. As you may know the bullet has a central hole running from the base to about half way to the spherically blunted tangent ogive that carries the 5mm steel ball ... if the bullet were solid perhaps it would not shatter/snap so easily but I did tap the bullets back into the case (slightly and carefully) to break the sealant before attempting to pull them.

I have no problem with them being Berdan primed cases. When I lived in Europe I used to decap Berdan primed brass regularly using a two pin manual tool and (IIRC) used 4521 primer but that was a long time ago and even if I don't reload the brass I know it'll be good for at least one firing. Money is tight (now there's a new one!) and I have a lot of these rounds.

Has anyone tried out the new GRIP-N-PULL bullet puller (on GB and a nice video on youtube) - it looks as though it might allow some "feel" to the pressure one applies whilst gripping the bullet.

Thanks in advance for your help - THR member posts come up all the time in my Google searches on just about every topic. Glad to be aboard and have a great July 4th everyone.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'd just shoot them. That's what they are made for and then they'd be ready to reload.

 

[Mike1943Ret]

@ Certaindeaf:

Well thats one way of getting some empty used 9mm cases I but I have enough 9mm empties already - it's the full ones loaded up with my chosen metallic bullets and loads/powders that I'm looking to assemble using these ready primed cases

Berdan primers can of course be acquired in the US but I'm not set up for reloading Berdan primed cases.

I also don't have the tapered bore training barrel for a Swedish K .... hang on ... I don't have a Swedish K either so shooting them out through any standard 9mm barrel will get me some spent cases that I can't reload as well as a barrel with a ruined peened bore. Not a good idea.

Thanks Certaindeaf but I was hoping for a more constructive and informative answer to my question and my needs. I'm a new "kid" on this forum but not exactly a new kid to shooting.

 

[kyhunter]

Any way to push them back in a little to break the sealant? Then pull them back out. If you had a way to hold them you could use the press backwards to unseat the bullet. I am not familiar with how brittle the plastic is on these however.

 

[Mike1943Ret]

Thanks kyhunter for comment. If you look at my first post you'll see :

I did tap the bullets back into the case (slightly and carefully) to break the sealant before attempting to pull them.

Bakelite unfortunately is an early "plastic" (thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin) which is quite brittle when subjected to torsional forces and doesn't stand up well to sheer or compression stress either. I thought about trying to dissolve it but it is just about insoluble in most if not all available solvents. Heck, it's almost impossible to even burn it. Soviet heatshields for ICBM warheads and spacecraft reentry consisted of asbestos textolite, impregnated with Bakelite.

It looks so far as if I'm in for a disappointment ride in trying to pull these bullets but somebody somewhere who is hopefully also a member of THR must have been successful at some time. I have a lot of this ammo and the Norma brass cases are very good, and (obviously) are already primed - if only I could pull those darned "baked" bullets :banghead:

 

[rcmodel]

as well as a barrel with a ruined peened bore. Not a good idea.

What gives you that idea??

Bakelite bullets cannot possibly harm a steel rifled barrel.

At best they will just shoot out the end.
At worse they will fracture and come out in frags & small particles.

But in neither case are they going to 'peen' your barrel.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

Looking at the picture of the Grip n Pull puller, it will require an extension shellholder to pull pistol bullets. I thought of doing a tough pulling job with pliers on the press but the ram just does not run a pistol cartridge up through the die hole.

You could test the concept with two pairs of pliers, see if you can yank the bullet out without breaking it up.

I don't see a Bakelite bullet hurting a barrel, even with a 5mm steel ball embedded.
But that would still leave him with a fired Berdan primer.

 

[Mike1943Ret]

@ rcmodel : Bakelite does no damage per se, but if this round is not fired using the correct M45 training barrel the bullet will (almost always) break up immediately upon firing and the steel ball literally bounces down the barrel and does peen (ruin) it. It has been my experience in an old test barrel and may I suggest you do a Google search on barrel damage with Swedish training ammo? There have been numerous posts on the subject on a number of well known firearms forums.

 

[rcmodel]

may I suggest you do a Google search on barrel damage with Swedish training ammo?

Well, thanks, but no thanks.

I already have way too much useless information on American guns & ammo floating around in my head.

No use cluttering it up any further with that bit of Swedish training ammo Obscura

Please disregard my previous post.
Sorry I gave you that bum information.

rc

 

[Mike1943Ret]

@ Jim Watson : Jim thanks for the comment - please read my reply to an earlier post regarding barrel damage.

There is an excellent video of the the GRIP-N-PULL in use on youtube. Search GRIP-N-PULL and view the 2:32 movie. They supply a steel tube to allow their tool to work with pistol length bullets.

Hope this clarifies things.

 

[Mike1943Ret]

@ rc : with all due respect to your knowledge base:

I already have way too much useless information on American guns & ammo floating around in my head. No use cluttering it up any further with that bit of Swedish training ammo Obscura

I'm puzzled as to why you took the time to post responses to my question. You've told me that my facts were incorrect and then (per Obscura) that I'm asking a question about an antique or curiosity in which you have no interest and don't have any wish to get to know anything about it.

I came to the forum to ask for information and help from those more knowledgeable than myself. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot

 

[Jim Watson]

I found the video, finally. There are several and it was a slow go finding the 2:32 edition.
Good idea on the tube. One simple part replaces the extension shellholder per caliber that would be required to pull pistol bullets at the top of the press as it does rifle rounds.
I've pulled a lot of bullets over the past couple of years, this would have been handy. I have been using a Hornady and an inertial. I doubt I have enough left to justify a new puller.

Now, say more about the ammo. What does it DO? Does it launch the BB with enough speed and accuracy for reduced range training or what?

 

[Mike1943Ret]

Hi Jim. I'm hoping the attached images (if I'm allowed to post them as a newbie) will give you a good idea of what the ammo was designed to do.

I know of quite a number of Swedish K45 owners who have either the original training barrel or one of the "newer" but not so desirable US made barrels and who love to shoot this ammo. It can be pretty accurate out of the correct barrel and the M45 functions just the same as it would if it were loaded with full power ammo. It's got quite a high powder charge as you can see from the specs and that BB is HARD steel and starts out at 1150 (up to 1600 fps depending on barrel length - see para below) and it can be lethal up to 30 meters or so. It has a 22gr steel ball over 4gr of powder!

I bought a bunch of it years ago hoping that I'd get an M45 but that didn't work out so now I have a LOT of "ready primed" cases ... IF I can pull the bullets

It has no use in other 9mm's - it needs the training barrel to work, and those barrels are sadly made of unobtinium nowadays. There was a guy on another board (quite a while ago now) who was going to make barrels for this ammo that fit the 9mm M16 and UZI and possibly the M10/9mm as well as other 9mm subguns but last I heard was that the venture didn't really take off. That training barrel is apparently difficult and expensive to produce even with CNC machines.

Best regards,

Mike.