Tension or travel behavior of the frizzen and flint lifespan

[BCRider]

I attended a Rendezvous this past weekend and had a great time. Didn't do all that well but that's my own fault. But it was great just to be out and shooting some smoky stuff with the flintlock.

One of the guys in my shooting group mentioned that he has gotten up around 100 or so shots from the one flint he was using. I was blown away by that as the best I've managed is around two dozen or slightly more before some slight edge knapping was needed.

I got to check out his Brown Bess and found that the frizzen on his action had a surprisingly soft spring and that it really only sprung closed for about the last 10 to 15° onto the pan. The rest of the travel it would just sit there and let itself be easily pushed this way or that. And with only a few ounces of pressure too.

This contrasted with my own frizzen. On mine it snaps shut firmly up to 20 to 25° from seated on the pan. It just sits in the other spots but needs a firm pressure to move from one angle to another in either direction.

Now the first concern is that the weak pressure on his frizzen spring might allow the frizzen to avoid riding the flint with enough pressure. But this does not seem to be the case as he generally has very good reliable ignition when I've been out with him on a number of occasions. In fact he's the fellow that taught me a few tricks about shooting flintlocks in light to moderate rain.

The bottom line is that I think I'm going to lighten up my frizzen spring a little and play with the heel profile where it rides on the frizzen spring to ease up my own lockwork. I don't think I'll go as extreme as his until I get or make a replacement frizzen spring to play with. But I feel there's much to be gained with this sort of frizzen spring tuning. If I were able to get up to more like 50 to 60 shots from a flint before it needs a bit of edge knapping I'd be overjoyed.

Thoughts? Your own findings?

 

[Doak]

I attended a Rendezvous this past weekend and had a great time. Didn't do all that well but that's my own fault. But it was great just to be out and shooting some smoky stuff with the flintlock.

One of the guys in my shooting group mentioned that he has gotten up around 100 or so shots from the one flint he was using. I was blown away by that as the best I've managed is around two dozen or slightly more before some slight edge knapping was needed.

I got to check out his Brown Bess and found that the frizzen on his action had a surprisingly soft spring and that it really only sprung closed for about the last 10 to 15° onto the pan. The rest of the travel it would just sit there and let itself be easily pushed this way or that. And with only a few ounces of pressure too.

This contrasted with my own frizzen. On mine it snaps shut firmly up to 20 to 25° from seated on the pan. It just sits in the other spots but needs a firm pressure to move from one angle to another in either direction.

Now the first concern is that the weak pressure on his frizzen spring might allow the frizzen to avoid riding the flint with enough pressure. But this does not seem to be the case as he generally has very good reliable ignition when I've been out with him on a number of occasions. In fact he's the fellow that taught me a few tricks about shooting flintlocks in light to moderate rain.

The bottom line is that I think I'm going to lighten up my frizzen spring a little and play with the heel profile where it rides on the frizzen spring to ease up my own lockwork. I don't think I'll go as extreme as his until I get or make a replacement frizzen spring to play with. But I feel there's much to be gained with this sort of frizzen spring tuning. If I were able to get up to more like 50 to 60 shots from a flint before it needs a bit of edge knapping I'd be overjoyed.

Thoughts? Your own findings?

You're right! Tuning & easing the frizzen spring is beneficial.

The frizzen will work just fine w/out the frizzen spring.

The frizzen spring's only real job is to keep the frizzen closed, or keep it open, depending on the shooter's wishes.

Frizzen should snap open as the flint approaches the bottom of the frizzen.

Heating and bending down, the end of the frizzen spring, at the right place, is the way to set the timing. Gotta re-harden & temper the spring. Best to avoid altering the cam under the frizzen's pivot hole.

Everything on the lock is interrelated. Tuning the main spring is also beneficial. Over amped hammers will tear up flints too.

I've built a number of Siler kits, over the years, and my experience has been, for want of sources of reliable knowledge, one of trial & error: eventually leading to mastery of the beast.

Just as an interesting footnote: Flinters will perform quite well when fired up-
side-down.

Kindest Regards,
Doak

 

[BCRider]

Thanks for your thoughts on this Doak. Confirms that my thought process is on the right track for once.

Between the first posting and this reply I was cleaning the rifle and did some tuning on the frizzen. Unlike your suggestion I went at altering the shape of the cam. I feel it's doing the same thing just via a different path. Plus on this lock it's a little more "interesting" since the frizzen spring has a small rolling wheel on the contact end that rides on the frizzen cam. Makes for easy motion but pretty much ruins the idea of altering the end of the spring for angle and curve to work with the cam.

Looking and thinking about it what is needed I realized that to get the frizzen to just sit instead of snapping one way or the other I needed to shape the cam so it formed a circular arc with the pivot hole at the center of that segment of arc. Once we have that condition there's no spiral ramp angle to force the frizzen to move one way or the other.

Presently It's not AS free traveling as my buddy's frizzen. But it's a whole heap better than it was. Far softer to unseat and goes "neutral" at a much earlier point in the rise.

Flattening out the cam and producing this profile removed maybe .01 to .015" of metal. So the spring tension is lessened a touch as well as the "lever arm" distance between the pivot and the surface of the cam face is shorter by this much. It's surprising how much easier it is to move the frizzen now. Next step would be to soften the frizzen spring. But I think I'll try it for a while as it is first.

I strongly suspect you're right about my mainspring as well. It's the higher spring rate of my two flint locks. The other being a Lyman GPR with the coil spring lock. And in fact it's harder to cock than my two cap lock pistols. But it's not far off what my underhammer cap rifle has on the hammer force. I wish I'd compared my buddy's hammer cocking force to mine while I was at it.

For some time now I've wanted to make a spring compressor for leaf style springs. I think this is a good excuse. But for now I'm going to button it up and put it away. Too many jobs like this already in the lineup.

 

[daboyleroy]

Tune a flintlock






SPRINGS

Springs are the heart of your lock. Polish all contact points. (Examples - main spring tip, tumbler hook surface, top surface of frizzen spring.) Make sure that the nose of the mainspring has clearance in the tumbler at the fully cocked position. Polish the springs themselves, a polished spring is less apt to fracture. Any scratches or flaws are potential fracture points. Caution: polish only, do not reduce the strength of the spring. Make sure that the spring does not bind anywhere during its movement. There should be approximately a 1/3 to 2/3 balance between the main spring and frizzen spring (by feel or trigger pull gauge).

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/entry.php?111-Tuning-a-Flintlock&goto=prev




http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no4/articles/mbo44-3.shtml




http://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/MuzzleBlasts-DEC-2013-STUTZENBERGER.pdf


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3941-Tuning-a-flintlock-for-success


http://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/making-your-flintlock-ignition-faster-in-15-easy-steps/



Bonus footage


My buddy Gene made a trip to New Zealand this spring, and took a fine stag with his 10 bore Jaeger rifle. I've known Gene for over 25 years. I have shot, hunted, played music with, and attended his invitational shoots at his ranch. We worked together at Serengeti Rifles, and he is head gunsmith at Kilimanjaro Rifles now. He is probably the finest shot with anything I have ever seen, be it longbow, a Sharps rifle at 1000 yards, or on a combat pistol course. We are members of the same mountain man association, and he is the real deal.

Pay attention to his accouterments for hunting, and the amount of powder to use in the priming pan. He is one guy I know that his rifle will always go off when the chips are down. Like all refined and civilized men, he prefers flintlocks.

was told after the drying period, this stag is now ranked #1 in the world.


This runs just a bit more than 22 minutes. Enjoy!






Beautiful, the gun, the hunt, and the country. Color me jealous!

 

[4v50 Gary]

Besides a good lock, there's something to be said for dumb luck with the rock/flint itself. I have had over 120 shots with one flint and one famous rifle maker told me he has too.

 

[BCRider]

There's no doubt that the flints play a part in all this too. I'm just hoping to shift my average number of firings between knapping and replacement up by some worthwhile amount.

 

[BCRider]

From another forum where I posted the same question I'm seeing advice on lightening and smoothing the frizzen but to keep the mainspring for the cock fairly stiff and fast. The idea being that we want a fast moving flint to produce a good shower of sparks. Thoughts?

It's also interesting to see the idea of the 1/3 to 2/3 split. But that's an odd way of putting it. I read that as being that the pressure at the cock from the mainspring should be twice what it takes to move the frizzen from the closed position.