The 10 Commandments & Alabama

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So there it is.

Rededicate the monument and disallow any form of clergy from attending.

Write a dedication and acceptance document that accepts the monument as a secular, not religious item.

Place it outside and turn it away from any entrance or from view of vehicle traffic.

Problem solved.
 
The USSC can't hide forever on this issue

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15787

Supreme Court refuses to clear up confusion over Ten Commandments display

By The Associated Press

02.26.02

WASHINGTON — Courts across America have reached different conclusions in emotional Ten Commandments cases, some allowing government displays of the biblical list, others barring such postings.

Only the Supreme Court can resolve the question, and it chose yesterday to steer clear for now.

The court quietly turned away an appeal from Indiana Gov. Frank O'Bannon, who wanted permission to place a 7-foot stone monument on the grounds of the state Capitol.

The court's action was a defeat for Indiana and other states that sought the high court's endorsement for the notion that the Ten Commandments are as much emblems of legal tradition as they are biblical teachings.

"To just cavalierly dismiss (the case) is to put aside what is becoming a very large, growing concern on the part of millions of Americans," said Rob Schenck, an evangelical minister whose Ten Commandments Project supports the list's display.

"People are petty for attacking the Ten Commandments, and it should not be sanctioned by the United States Supreme Court," Schenck said.

In North Dakota, legislators last year approved a measure allowing schools to post the Ten Commandments as part of a larger display of religious and historical documents.

A monument of the Ten Commandments in Fargo drew threats of a lawsuit to try to get it removed. But the group seeking to remove it, the Red River Freethinkers, postponed that effort after the September terrorist attacks. Members said they worried it could lead to a backlash against Muslims.

The Indiana case presented an opportunity for a broad ruling on government display of the Ten Commandments, whether outdoors on monuments or indoors in courtrooms or other civic spaces.

Instead, the hodgepodge of conflicting court rulings will continue at least until the next time the court faces a similar appeal.

Monuments such as Indiana's are forbidden in that state along with Illinois and Wisconsin, but allowed[/b] in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico.

Under a 1994 federal appeals court ruling, plaques bearing the Ten Commandments may not be displayed in courthouses in Alabama, Florida and Georgia. In recent years state and federal courts have also struck down display of similar plaques in South Carolina and Kentucky.

To add to the confusion, some monuments or plaques remain in jurisdictions that theoretically prohibit them. In Alabama, opponents claim the state's chief justice flouted a federal appeals court ruling by installing a 5,280-pound depiction of the Ten Commandments in the state Supreme Court rotunda.

"All Americans should feel welcome when they walk into a city hall, a courthouse or a public school," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

"The posting of religious symbols there says some religious groups are better than others."

Nine states joined in a friend-of-the-court brief asking the high court to hear the Indiana case. The law is unclear, making it difficult for state legislatures to know what to do, attorneys general in Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah and Virginia wrote.

"The importance of the issue in this case goes beyond simply whether government may display the Ten Commandments on a monument on public property," the states wrote. "The larger issue is the extent to which government may acknowledge and accommodate religion as being an important part of our nation's heritage."

The Ten Commandments contain both religious and secular directives, including the familiar proscriptions against stealing, killing and adultery. The Bible says God gave the list to Moses. The Constitution bars government promotion of religion but protects the individual's freedom to worship as he or she pleases.

Last May, the court divided bitterly in turning away a separate case involving display of a Ten Commandments monument outside a civic building.

The court's three most conservative members took the rare step of announcing that they would have agreed to hear that case, prompting an angry rejoinder from one of the most liberal justices.

The monument "simply reflects the Ten Commandments' role in the development of our legal system," Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for himself and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

The words "I am the Lord thy God," in the first line of the monument's inscription are "rather hard to square with the proposition that the monument expresses no particular religious preference," Justice John Paul Stevens replied.

In O'Bannon v. Indiana Civil Liberties Union, the governor wanted the donated monument to replace one defaced by a vandal. The Indiana chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union sued, and lower federal courts blocked the installation on grounds that it promoted a religious purpose.

 
I have lived in Alabama for all of my twenty-eight years, and I can safely say that Roy Moore is an ******* with ulterior motives. I just hope that he is not our next governor. He picked an issue that is a hot topic in this area, and he is milking it for all that it is worth.
 
Here is a novel concept; personal religious items such as yarmulkes, crosses, prayer rugs and religious tomes are acceptable everywhere as an expression of one’s beliefs. Environs that are owned by the public jointly (state) shall have no distinctly religious items on display promoting one over the other.

On second thought, don’t we already have something like this…?
:rolleyes:
 
I gotta idea.

The people who need to display religious symbols, and discuss their significance and place in the secular world, could build buildings dedicated to just that.

They could go there and meet with other like-minded people to view the artifacts, and even think up meaningful rituals to honor their symbols and their beliefs.

That way, the rest of the population would not feed threatened or pressured into agreeing, and could pick the building of their own choice to join, and what is is they need to believe.

db
 
My respect for Southerners is growing...........................:D



Mississippi covets neighbor's monument
Protests, lawsuit continue in Alabama

Thursday, August 28, 2003 Posted: 5:57 PM EDT (2157 GMT)




MONTGOMERY, Alabama (CNN) -- Mississippi Gov. Ronnie Musgrove volunteered Thursday to join neighboring Alabama in the fight over the Ten Commandments monument by offering to display it in his state's capitol building for a week starting September 7.

The 2.6-ton granite edifice was moved from the rotunda of the Alabama state judicial building to a back room out of public view Wednesday on order of a federal court that ruled it violated the U.S. Constitution's restriction on government establishment of religion. (Full story)

Musgrove, a Democrat, urged other governors to allow similar displays in their states "to show support for our common Judeo-Christian heritage."

"Like many Americans, I have watched as Alabama's struggle to display our Christian heritage has unfolded," Musgrove said in a statement.

"I had hoped and prayed that the courts would stand up for our rights, and I am disappointed. It is my sincere hope that the U.S. Supreme Court will override the federal court's decision."


http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/28/ten.commandments/index.html
 
'YOU MUST OBEY ORDERS'
JUDGE MOORE IN THE CRUCIBLE

By: Rich Smith

"Good morning, Judge Moore. The Commissioners appreciate you being here to respond to the charges against you.

"This is only an informal hearing, so I want you to feel relaxed. Realize that you’re among friends in this room, and what transpires here today goes no farther than these walls. For now, anyway.

"Let me, then, cut right to the chase. The charges against you are that you were given a lawful order and that you willfully refused to obey it.




"I’m sure I needn’t remind you that ours is a nation governed not by men but by laws. Everything we do is for the good of our nation, and all of it has a basis purely in law.

"Therefore, we are not at liberty to refuse to obey lawful orders. When a higher official or court instructs us of our duty, then we must carry it out, no matter how much we might disagree with that order. To do anything less than obey lawful orders would be to throw the country into chaos. Is that what you want, Judge Moore – chaos?

"We’ve heard your defense, that you’re relying on the ages-old legal doctrine of ‘interposition’ which permits a servant of the state such as yourself to reject any lawful order if it’s also an immoral order.

"But what is immoral these days? For that matter, what is truth?

"This thing you’re trying to protect, I must ask you, is it worth sacrificing your career for? Don’t you know this Commission has the power to permanently strip you of your high office and all the perks that go along with it? The lavish salary. The adoration of the intelligentsia. The invitations to the A-list cocktail parties. All of that is in jeopardy right now because of your inexplicable defiance.

"Look, you and I both are servants of the state. We’re members of the same team. And, because of that, I’m going to give you one final chance to do your sworn duty and obey the order that has been lawfully handed down to you.

"Even my wife wants you to have a final chance. Why, just last night, she and I were talking about this. Mrs. Himmler turned to me in bed and said, ‘That Judge Moore is such a nice-looking man. Heinrich, can’t you do something to help him?’

"And I really do want to help you, dear fellow. All you have to do is obey the order you were given by the party high-command to remove that filthy bastard Jew law professor you’re harboring in your office. I assure you, the order to round up all the Jews comes from the uppermost levels of our government. It is a perfectly lawful order; just ask any legal-affairs expert and you’ll see. Besides, it’s not as if we’re going to do any harm to the filthy bastard Jew. We’re only going to relocate him a safe distance away in a special but quite secure camp right outside the town of Auschwitz. Trust me, he’ll be very comfortable and happy there, even if on some days the smoke can be a bit of a bother.

"So, please. Set aside your conscience and obey the law. Do it with the biggest set of blinders you can put on. It’s the only truly moral thing to do here in the Fatherland in this, the decade of the glorious 1940s. Afterwards, if you ever find yourself in a courtroom on trial in a place like, say, Nuremberg, and they ask you why you consented to allow that filthy bastard Jew to be taken from your office, you can always reply that you were only following orders and that it would have been an unforgivable violation of judicial ethics for you to question the morality of the lawful order you were given.

"Don’t be a fool, man. Obey the order unquestioningly. There’s no such thing as an order you can disobey."


http://www.etherzone.com/2003/rsmit082903.shtml
 
http://bbspot.com/politics/News/2003/08/burning_cross.html


Thursday, August 28 12:01 AM EDT

Mississippi Judge Ordered to Remove
Twelve-foot Burning Cross From Courthouse
By Brian Briggs

Jackson, MS - Judge Clinton Marburger continued his refusal to comply with a federal court ruling which ordered him to remove a twelve-foot tall burning cross from his courtroom.


The state faces fines and loss of federal funding if the cross is not removed before Friday at midnight.

"The cross is a symbol of God which is the moral basis for our laws," said Judge Marburger. "It's not endorsing any particular form of religion. All Christian denominations recognize the cross as an important symbol, so it really shouldn't be an issue."

"Furthermore," continued Judge Marburger, "the cross in my courtroom symbolizes the sacrifice that we all make in meting out justice, and the flames symbolize the warm feelings we have for all those who pass through our doors. Who could object to that?"

Supporters of Judge Marburger held hands on the courthouse steps and sang choruses of "Amazing Grace" and "My Mammy" during an overnight, cross-light vigil.

"Everyone knows that Jesus died on the cross, so why wouldn't we want to burn it? I mean would Jesus want to come back and see all these crosses around? I don't think he would want to be reminded of that time," questioned Tom Hayder, a supporter from Biloxi.

Other supporters wondered when the separation of church and state madness would end. Cheryl White from Jackson worried, "First they forbid the ten commandments in Alabama, now our burning cross in Mississippi. Next thing you know, they'll want to stop the re-enactments of the crucifixion during sentencing that the court in Texas does?"

The perpetually burning cross was installed late one night in July, and met with immediate objections from Civil Rights groups who decried it as a hateful symbol of racism and intolerance.


"Those people just don't understand," retorted Marburger. "When I make rulings in my courtroom, I take no consideration into the race or religious affiliation of the unseemly heathen, mostly black defendants in my courtroom."





A federal court ruled that not only did the burning cross promote a religion, but that Judge Marburger was "out of his effing mind and should be removed from the bench with extreme prejudice."
 
The State of Alabama has the Power of Nullification

By Robert Greenslade

The Ten Commandment controversy raging in Alabama goes far beyond the First Amendment. This case goes to the very heart of political compacts and the power of a party to a contract to nullify the unlawful acts of its agent. The State of Alabama, in its capacity as one of the United States and a party to the constitutional compact between the several States, has the power of nullification whenever any branch of the federal government blatantly exceeds its delegation of authority. This is one of those cases.
Contrary to the rhetoric emanating from the media and political pundits, this case has nothing to do with a lawful order by a federal court. The order was rooted in the judicial fiction that the First Amendment mandates a separation of “church and stateâ€. These words do not appear in the Amendment or anywhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…†Even if the First Amendment applies to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, as asserted in this case, the Ten Commandments, displayed in manner that does not promote the establishment of a state religion, is insufficient to trigger the constitutional prohibitions of the First Amendment.

The Alabama case raises a constitutional question. When a department of the federal government blatantly exceeds its delegation of authority and attempts to unconstitutionally restrict the sovereign powers of a State, how does a State, as a party to the Constitution, protect itself from the unlawful act of its agent? Thomas Jefferson answered this question in a document known as the Kentucky Resolutions. Written in 1798, these resolutions were in response to the unconstitutional attempt by Congress to expand the criminal jurisdiction of the federal government through a set of laws entitled the “Alien and Sedition Laws.†The document stated in part:

The several states composing the United States of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their General Government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of Amendments thereto, they constituted a General Government for special purposes,?delegated to that Government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the Government created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution the measure of its powers; but that, as to other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

As stated by Jefferson, the federal judiciary was not granted the power to interpret the Constitution or decide, in the last resort, questions involving the nature of the compact between the several States. Only the States, as the exclusive parties to the compact among themselves, possess that power.

The State of Virginia also adopted a set of resolutions in response to the “Alien and Sedition Laws.†These resolutions paralleled Jefferson’s overview of the Constitution and re-affirmed the principle that the States have the power to decide, in the last resort, the extent of the powers delegated by the States to their federal government.

James Madison, who has been recognized as the father of the Constitution, prepared a detailed analysis of these resolutions and affirmed the ultimate power of the States to arrest any blatant usurpation of power by the federal government. His report stated in part:

The resolution having taken this view of the Federal compact, proceeds to infer, ‘that in case of a deliberate, palpable and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the States who are parties thereto, have the right, and are duty bound, to interpose, for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them.’

It appears…to be a plain principle, founded in common sense, illustrated by common practice, and essential to the nature of compacts- that, where resort can be had to no tribunal superior to the parties, the parties themselves must be the rightful judges in the last resort, whether the bargain made has been pursued or violated. The Constitution of the United States, was framed by the sanction of the States, given each in its sovereign capacity... The States, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows that there can be to tribunal above their authority, to decide in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and, consequently, that, as the parties to it, they must themselves decide in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.

* * *

[T]he resolution has done more than guard against misconstruction, by expressly referring to cases of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous nature. It specifies the object of the interposition which it contemplates, to be solely that of arresting the progress of the evil of usurpation, and of maintaining the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to the States, as parties to the Constitution.

* * *

But it is objected, that the Judicial authority is to be regarded as the sole expositor of the Constitution in the last resort; and it may be asked for what reason, the declaration by the General Assembly, supposing it to be theoretically true, could be required at the present day, and in so solemn a manner.

On this objection it might be observed: first, that there may be instances of usurped power, which the forms of the Constitution would never draw within the control of the Judicial department; secondly, that if the decision of the judiciary be raised above the authority of the sovereign parties to the Constitution, the decisions of the other departments, not carried by the forms of the Constitution before the Judiciary, must be equally authoritative and final with the decisions of that department. But the proper answer to the objection is, that the resolution of the General Assembly relates to those great and extraordinary cases, in which all the forms of the Constitution may prove ineffectual against infractions dangerous to the essential rights of the parties to it. The resolution supposes that dangerous powers not delegated, may not only be usurped and executed by the other departments, but that the Judicial department, also, may exercise or sanction dangerous powers beyond the grant of the Constitution; and, consequently, that the ultimate right of the parties to the Constitution, to judge whether the compact has been dangerously violated, must extent to violations by one delegated authority, as well as by another; by the Judiciary, as well as by the Executive, or the Legislative.

However true, therefore, it may be that the Judicial department is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the Government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the Judicial as well as the other departments hold their delegated trusts. On any other hypothesis, the delegation of Judicial power would annul the authority delegating it; and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers, might subvert forever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution, which all were instituted to preserve.

In 1838, the United States Senate adopted a series of resolutions concerning the nature of the federal government. The third of these, which were adopted by a vote of 31 to 11, acknowledged that the federal government is the agent of the States:

Resolved, That this Government was instituted and adopted by the several States of this Union as a common agent, in order to carry into effect the powers which they had delegated by the Constitution for their mutual security and prosperity…[emphasis added]

As stated by Jefferson and Madison, the Constitution is a compact between the several States. John Marshall, the infamous Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, stated that the judicial power of the federal government “cannot extend to political compacts.†Since the Constitution is a political compact between the several States, the federal courts have no constitutional authority to decide, in the last resort, the extent of the powers delegated to the federal government by States.

Anytime an agent exceeds its authority, the principals, or any one of them, has the power to nullify any act of the agent that goes beyond the original grant of power. In the instant case, the States’ agent has blatantly exceeded its constitutional grant of power. The State of Alabama, as one of the United States and a party to the constitutional compact, has the authority to ignore the District Court order by invoking its power of nullification. Since that would turn this into a political question involving the grant of power from the States to their agent, the federal judiciary would constitutionally lose jurisdiction over this controversy. If the States do not exert their authority and re-gain control over their federal government, the federal judiciary, given time, will reduce the States to mere geographical locations and make them totally subservient to the federal government.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Greenslade focuses his writing on issues surrounding the federal government and the Constitution. He believes politicians at the federal level, through ignorance or design, are systematically dismantling the Constitution in an effort to expand their power and consolidate control over the American people. He has dedicated himself to resurrecting the true intent of the Constitution in the hope that the information will contribute, in some small way, to restoring the system of limited government established by the Constitution.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/08/29/greenslade.htm
 
Yeouch!

How dare he call the Constitution what it really is?

How dare he call the States what they really are?

How dare he call the Federal Government what it really is?

How dare he use the exact words of the Founders and the Senate to prove his point?

How dare he construe the Constitution in its true form?

How dare he bring logical thought to this illogical debate?

Damned rabble rouser, anyway.
 
This case goes to the very heart of political compacts and the power of a party to a contract to nullify the unlawful acts of its agent. The State of Alabama, in its capacity as one of the United States and a party to the constitutional compact between the several States, has the power of nullification whenever any branch of the federal government blatantly exceeds its delegation of authority. This is one of those cases.
Ohhhhh! And he did sooo well until that last line! Wrong bucko! This is NOT one of those cases. The very fact that ALL the Supreme Court justices save one (Moore, like you couldn’t guess) are quite aware of nullification yet chose to do the exact opposite and vote against Preacher Moore states the case quite plainly. Why nullify that which you agree with? Hmm? Next batter… :cool:
 
Anyone here remember the LawDog Off-Limits Topic list from The Firing Line?

Homosexuality.
Abortion.
Religion.

This thread reminds of why religion was on the list.

Too much heat, no light.

I'm putting this damned dead horse in a decent grave.

Lights out.

LawDog
 
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