The Case Of Harold Fish, Does This Apply in Texas? R U Guilty until proven innocent?

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drjoker

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Harold Fish in Arizona was presumed guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof was on the defender to prove that a shooting was in self-defense (the law has since changed in Arizona). Since there were no eyewitnesses to the shooting, Harold Fish could not prove that he shot the other guy in self-defense. Therefore, he was sent to prison for defending himself.

What is the legal standard in Texas? Is the burden of proof on the defender to prove that he/she acted in self-defense in a shooting? Are you presumed guilty until proven innocent?

Thank you for your answer,
:)

P.S. Details about the Harold Fish case:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221//
 
You are always "guilty until proven innocent" when you use lethal force that results in death if charged for practical purposes. The defender is not contesting that the act was done, merely that it was justified.
Consider that normally a criminal is arguing to have not committed the act at all while the prosecution asserts otherwise and tries to prove it. While in self defense the defendant is admitting to the act, but claiming it had all the legal elements to justify it under the law, while the prosecutor is trying to show it was not justified.


A homicide was still committed. Certain elements can justify homicide, but homicide is a crime. So in essence the question is not whether the crime of homicide was committed, but whether it was justified which removes the criminal penalty.
To simply understand the concept think of it as breaking the law, and then showing that the breaking of the law was justified due to the circumstances.


Self Defense is a legal defense against committing the crime. However you need to show the 'crime' was justified. So you would be guilty unless you can show that justification.


A few states have since written the law to sound different, but in practical application the result is the same. Especially in cases where the self defense was in a public place with no witnesses.
Harold Fish was not saying he did not shoot the guy, prove that he did. He was saying yes I shot him, but it was justified.

I can not think of any state where that would not have still ended up in court. No witnesses, the word of the living against the word of the dead.
The only thing that adds credibility to Fish's version was the history of the attacker. Yet that was excluded from the trial. So in the trial it really was just the word of the 'killer' saying his lethal force was justified.
So they based the case on various other factors:
Like it took Fish a long time to travel a short distance for help. Which was used to imply he wanted the guy to die so he couldn't tell his version.
That Fish overreacted and to cover his tracks he intentionally let the only other witness die.


If you ever use lethal force which results in serious injury or death, and they decide to charge you, then it will be guilty unless proven innocent for all intents and purposes. Not technically, but realistically. Because you will not be contesting the fact that such force was used by you, so half of the case against you is already made. They don't have to prove with evidence that it actually was you there who shot the person.
All that is left for the prosecution to do is show it was not justified. Only half the work of a typical murder/manslaughter trial.
 
And in Texas keep in mind that if you kill someone you WILL go to a Grand Jury, it's not optional or at the discretion of a prosecutor.

So yes in a way you will be put on the defensive from day one.

Your idea of guilty until proven innocent is sort of right. You ARE guilty, and you will have to admit it.

It IS a crime to kill someone in Texas, that's called homicide. There are JUSTIFICATIONS that might make OK but it's an illegal act notwithstanding one of these justifications.

So yes, you will need to provide a justification. ABSENT a justification you will be guilty of a crime.

And, to provide the justification you must CONFESS that you killed someone, placing you in an possibly difficult position.

Counter that for example with someone who robs a liquor store. That person will likely deny it and the prosecutor will have to prove he was the robber.

In pretty much any self defense killing you will confess that you did indeed take a life, so you ARE guilty, you just have to justify it.
 
Zoogster is pretty close. In all cases, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That said, self-defense is an affirmative defense; that is, you admit your guilt, then say "but it was justified." Thus, Harold Fish was presumed innocent right up to the point where he said "yeah, I shot 'im." The burden of proof then shifted to Mr. Fish to prove his claim of "but it was his own fault."
 
From Texas Penal Code:

http://www.texaspolicecentral.com/Penal_Code.pdf


Sec. 2.03. Defense.
(a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a
defense to prosecution . . ."
(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation
charging commission of the offense.
(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted
supporting the defense.
(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a
reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.
(e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly labeled in accordance with this chapter
has the procedural and evidentiary consequences of a defense.

Sec. 2.04. Affirmative Defense.
(a) An affirmative defense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is an affirmative defense to
prosecution . . . ."
(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of an affirmative defense in
the accusation charging commission of the offense.
(c) The issue of the existence of an affirmative defense is not submitted to the jury unless
evidence is admitted supporting the defense.
(d) If the issue of the existence of an affirmative defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall
charge that the defendant must prove the affirmative defense by a preponderance of evidence.

Sec. 2.05. Presumption.
(a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), when this code or another penal law establishes a
presumption with respect to any fact, it has the following consequences:
(1) if there is sufficient evidence of the facts that give rise to the presumption, the issue of
the existence of the presumed fact must be submitted to the jury, unless the court is
satisfied that the evidence as a whole clearly precludes a finding beyond a reasonable
doubt of the presumed fact; and
(2) if the existence of the presumed fact is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge the
jury, in terms of the presumption and the specific element to which it applies, as follows:
(A) that the facts giving rise to the presumption must be proven beyond a
reasonable doubt;
(B) that if such facts are proven beyond a reasonable doubt the jury may find that
the element of the offense sought to be presumed exists, but it is not bound to so
find;
(C) that even though the jury may find the existence of such element, the state
must prove beyond a reasonable doubt each of the other elements of the offense
charged; and
(D) if the jury has a reasonable doubt as to the existence of a fact or facts giving
rise to the presumption, the presumption fails and the jury shall not consider the
presumption for any purpose.
(b) When this code or another penal law establishes a presumption in favor of the defendant with
respect to any fact, it has the following consequences:
(1) if there is sufficient evidence of the facts that give rise to the presumption, the issue of
the existence of the presumed fact must be submitted to the jury unless the court is
satisfied that the evidence as a whole clearly precludes a finding beyond a reasonable
doubt of the presumed fact; and
(2) if the existence of the presumed fact is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge the
jury, in terms of the presumption, that:
(A) the presumption applies unless the state proves beyond a reasonable doubt
that the facts giving rise to the presumption do not exist;
(B) if the state fails to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the facts giving rise
to the presumption do not exist, the jury must find that the presumed fact exists;
(C) even though the jury may find that the presumed fact does not exist, the state
must prove beyond a reasonable doubt each of the elements of the offense
charged; and
(D) if the jury has a reasonable doubt as to whether the presumed fact exists, the
presumption applies and the jury must consider the presumed fact to exist

Sec. 9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person.
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately
necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly
force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping,
murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery
(b) The actors belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as
described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was
used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and
with force, the actors occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or
employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully
and with force, the actor from the actors habitation, vehicle, or place of business
or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection
(a)(2)(B);
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has
not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in
criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly
force as described by this section.
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection
(c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not
consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
 
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So in essence the question is not whether the crime of homicide was committed, but whether it was justified which removes the criminal penalty.

but it's an illegal act notwithstanding one of these justifications.

Not exactly. Justification = there was no crime. Excuse = there was a crime but it was excused. I've seen self defense statutes phrased both ways. If self defense is a JUSTIFICATION, then proving it means there was no illegal act at all. If it's just excused then there was an illegal act but it's excused. Though in practical effect there's no real difference from the defendant's point of view. In either case a successful defense means no conviction for murder. In both cases it's an affirmative defense and the burden is on the defendant.
 
Not exactly.
Zoogster is pretty close.

I know the technicalities, but to put it into layman's terms for understanding, it is exactly as I said.
I could make it much more complicated and go into the slight differences of various state laws in how they word things confusing the person who asked the question or others who read it. Yet the course of action is largely the same, and the burden of innocence is largely on the defendant. Which was the primary question and spirit of the original post.

For all intents and purposes you are guilty until you prove you are innocent when arguing self-defense after a homicide has been committed.

They no longer need to prove you killed the person, or presume you are innocent once you make the case of self-defense. There is acknowledgement by the defendant that they are indeed responsible for the death. So they are guilty of a crime through thier own admission unless justification can be presented which meets some exemption/justification under the law.

The prosecutor will attempt to show that such justification/excuse was not met for the violation of the law. The defense will need to show that such an excuse or exemption was met, and they are therefore not criminally liable under the law.

Now some states go further than others in providing justifications or excuses under the law for the action. Yet without that justification the action is criminal in all of them.
So from the start it is a guilty unless proven innocent situation once the argument of self defense is made. (Which is an admission of being the one responsible for pulling the trigger, and therefor of being in violation of the law if justification/excuse is not found by the court.)

Contrasted with a regular homicide prosecution where the accused has denied being involved, and they may in fact be entirely innocent and in no way connected to the killing. So the court must err on the side that the accused is in fact not the person responsible for the killing unless the evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they were responsible.
 
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This is roughly what the defense of "self defense" means in general terms.

Ordinarily, in a criminal prosecution the state must prove the elements of the criminal offense beyond a reasonable doubt. So if the crime charged, and for which the defendant is on trial, is manslaughter, the state must in general prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that (1) the defendant was there; (2) the defendant shot the decedent; and (3) the defendant intended to shoot the decedent. In defending the charge, the defendant merely needs to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors as to any one of these elements. The defendant can try to cast doubt on the state's claim that he was there (alibi defense); that he pulled the trigger (some other dude done it) or that he intended to shoot the decedent (the gun went off by accident). But all of that is completely inapplicable when the defendant pleads self defense.

If the defendant claims self defense, the prosecution doesn't have to prove, at all, that the defendant was there, that he shot the decedent or that he intended to shoot the decedent, because the defendant will have admitted each of those element of the crime of manslaughter. If the defendant is claiming self defense he necessarily must admit that he (1) was there; (2) shot the decedent; and (3) intended to shoot the decedent.

The defendant's defense is that his act of violence on another human being was legally justified. The allocation of the burden of proof and/or the burden of persuasion between the prosecution and defense in a self defense case varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But the defendant will at least have to put forward evidence establishing a prima facie case of justification according to the standard applicable to the use of lethal force in self defense in the jurisdiction.

The prosecutor must now convince the jury that the defendant's homicide was not justified, i. e., that the defendant's act, which he has admitted, did not meet the legal standard for self defense with lethal force. The prosecution's burden of proof in rebuttal to the defendant's prima facie case with vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions the prosecutor may have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. BUT in that may not be a great a burden as it sounds.

The defendant has admitted committing an act of extreme violence on another human being. This is something that most people, probably including most of the jurors naturally find repugnant. The defendant stand before the jury bearing the mark of Cain. It may not necessarily be easy for the defendant to convince a jury that his act of violence was justified. It may well be easier for the prosecutor to convince the jury that it was not.
 
Well don't get too carried away with the "presumption" of guilt or innocence. It's a lay concept that leads to a lot of confusion. Think of it in terms of who bears the burden of proof. The defendant bears it for affirmative defenses, but only to preponderance level. The prosecutor would still have hurdles to clear to get a conviction, depending on the exact charge. If for example the state alleges it was not self defense but a premeditated bushwhacking, the state would have a lot of ground to cover even if the AD failed.
 
Well no, I don't believe Harold Fish applies in Texas. Harold Fish was charged under Arizona law (a particularly stupid law at that as I recall), convicted, the law changed, retried under the guidelines of the new law, found not guilty, released. Last I checked, Arizona does not have jurisdictional power over Texas and vice versa.

Texas does not have the law that Arizona repealed.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
...Last I checked, Arizona does not have jurisdictional power over Texas and vice versa...
That's certainly true.

Double Naught Spy said:
...Harold Fish was ... convicted, ...retried ..., found not guilty, released....
That is not entirely accurate.

Fish was indeed convicted. He appealed. The court of appeals agreed with Fish that significant evidentiary and procedural errors occurred at his trial, and therefore the conviction was overturned and a new trial granted. The Arizona Attorney General has petitioned the Arizona Supreme Court to review the case and vacate the appellate court decision.

So Fish has not been retried and has not been found not guilty. It is possible that his conviction will be re-instated. It's also theoretically possible that if the appellate court decision stands he will yet be re-tried (but the DA has apparently said that he is not now inclined to re-try Fish, which would mena the he would dismiss the charges).

But I think the focus of the OP's question had more to do with how the burdens of producing evidence, persuasion and proof apply in a self defense case in Texas.
 
I live in Texas, Lubbock to be exact. A rather conservative community.

Local standards of conduct (Culture) have a hand in how courts, grand juries and DA's approach the application of law.

There was a fellow here that had an altercation w/ another man, and a stabbing death occured. Both were perverbial 'boy scouts' (one, the survivor, is actually a Cub Scout leader) prior to this incedent. The Grand Jury 'No Billed' him. In a more liberal venue, it might have been different.

Here, local judges always say a DA's or lawyers subpoena ALWAYs constitutes a 'Court Order' . HIPAA (federal rules) say otherwise, (in certain types of requests), but who is going to argue with a judge in a smaller venue?

In Dallas or Houston, it may go the other way.
 
Local standards of conduct (Culture) have a hand in how courts, grand juries and DA's approach the application of law.


This is very true, and is often times more important than the actual law in determining the outcome of a case.

There is many people who do not even know who thier district attorney is, or what judges were voted in within thier jurisdiction.
However if they have a criminal related problem (like being forced to use lethal force in self defense) which people hold those positions will be more important for thier future than which president is in office, who they sent to congress to represent them, or who the local mayor is.
Yet people can often cite exactly who holds those positions.


It will be the DA who decides if charges are even pursued. You can't be convicted of anything if never even charged. It also will give much greater peace of mind, and avoid legal expenses someone may spend years paying for even if they win.
If a Grand Jury gives a "no bill" it is almost as good.
If it does go to court the views of the judge who instruct the jury, determine which evidence can and cannot be presented, and determine how procedures are followed, will greatly determine the outcome.
Then of course the jurors themselves will greatly influence the outcome.
In some areas just a firearm involved and being moved around the courtroom will be foreign and scary to the majority of potential jurors. Biasing them from the start.

All throughout the process it is human beings applying the law. Imperfect people who hold different views and are biased in different directions on different issues. Some segments are more stereotypically biased in certain directions on certain issues.
The self defense laws (while not the gun laws) in California for example are better than in half of the nation. Yet the people who actually apply them will be worse than in many parts of the nation. Slanting the outcome heavily regardless of the wording of the law.

The same exact scenario in your typical 'liberal' large metro area can have a completely different result than in a jurisdiction where the DA, judges, and the jury pool come from or represent a 'conservative' rural area.
 
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A stat on self defense that get thrown about a lot is the FBI UCR table that shows ~170 justifiable homicides by shooting, defined as killing of a felon during commission of a felony by a citizen as adjudicated in a police crime report. The small print in the UCR states that does not include eventual adjudication by coroner, medical examiner, district attorney, grandjury, trial judge, petit (trial) jury or appellate court. Obviously a justifiable homicide in Texas wont appear in the FBI UCR and I suspect that a justifiable homicide by a civilian in Tennessee wont be adjudicated in a police report, since two local police shootings were adjudicated by the DA or the grand jury.

Professor Marvin Wolfgang wrote in a study on homicide that when and where homicides were tracked through the judicial system, 20% to 30% were eventually self-defense. Gary Kleck has written that the FBI UCR figure would need to be multiplied by four to seven times to get the true number of justifiable homicides. Point is, justifiable homicide is not lightly decided, and a justification of self-defense is often decided much further up the judicial system than a police crime report. Sometimes the case is so clear that the police or the DA will not bring charges, but that appears to be the exception not the general rule.
 
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Screwed in the city...?

So, basically, you're screwed if you shoot someone in self-defense without witnesses? This is because homicide is illegal. So, you automatically have to prove that it is justifiable. If you admit homicide, the burden of proof is on you to justify it. That's why Joe Horn got away with it, because there was a plain clothes police officer who witnessed everything. Hmmm.... I think I'm going to invest in a set of audio/video recorder eyeglass frames from ebay. They record for 300 to 600 minutes so I could leave them on and recording all day long. Also, to avoid having to shoot an unarmed attacker, I'll buy some pepper spray. I know, they are no good against a determined attacker, but if they are left blinded by the pepper spray then hopefully, I'll have a chance to flee and avoid a shooting.

I mean, if I give a verbal warning, shoot the BG with pepper spray, and try to flee but have my back against the wall, and have evidence from AV eyeglass recorders, and the idiot still tries to pummel me with his fists when I have a gun then hopefully, even the most anti-2nd Amendment of D.A.'s will decide not to prosecute and/or the grand jury no bills it if I shoot in self-defense. I may seem paranoid to some of you, but if you are African American and shoot someone in America, you'd better have a TON of evidence in your favor or you're screwed (unless you're rich). It seems like wealth bleaches your skin color or something....

BTW, thanks a ton for your replies. It really clears everything up for me.

P.S. rbernie, easy there fella, I did use the search feature, that's how I learned about Harold Fish in the first place. However, my search skills are obviously not as good as yours. Happy trails :)
 
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When examining statistical history, I often ponder about the proportion of data filled by criminals shooting each other (self defense or not) compared to the proportion of honest responsible citizens like us THR members who are forced to employ lethal force to defend themselves and their families.

I know this sounds like a dumb question, but I suspect that the huge majority of killings and self-defense pleadings are by criminals. Honest citizens forced to defend themselves probably constitute a tiny, tiny minority.
 
Let us know how those AV glasses work for you drjoker. I am sure they won't be a hassle or anything, but I would still like to hear how well they function, for how long, and how many times you find their use to be advantageous.

Thanks for the clarification, fiddletown.
 
Update: Fish is a Free Man

See story here:

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2009/12/02/news/local/20091202_local_208564.txt

The Arizona Supreme Court Tuesday declined a request by Attorney General Terry Goddard to review the state appellate court's overturning of Fish's conviction. "He's now a free man," said Fish's Flagstaff-based attorney Lee Phillips. "He's no longer convicted of an offense, and justice has prevailed."


Oh, yes, and Arizona has fixed their burden-of-proof requirement for self defense.

Harold will have a much better Christmas this year than last.


EDIT:
Meant to put this in the other thread. Sorry.​


 
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