The Compromises We Make with the Tools We Choose

[Aletheia]

Amen! I've prayed for misses for others in my party or simply passed up shots based on the work required to get the animal out several times!

My brother-in-law once said as we were standing looking at a dead moose in a bad spot, "Nothing ruins a moose hunt quite as much as someone actually managing to shoot one."

 

[LoonWulf]

Also I would not use these rounds in an AK as they jam and the bullet gets pushed back into the casing. Never tried these in an SKS.

I have and they ran fine in my gun. Shot 1.5MOA as well if I remember correctly.

 

[LoonWulf]

My brother-in-law once said as we were standing looking at a dead moose in a bad spot, "Nothing ruins a moose hunt quite as much as someone actually managing to shoot one."

Real conversation...
"why'd you turn off the radio"

"because I heard at least a couple of those shots hit"

....so I turned off my radio too.......

 

[horsey300]

Yeah, I had some serious buyers remorse on a shot one day too. Took most of a day to get the deer out, and that's when I was in my prime mid-20's. Later that year, I lost my job and unemployment was hung up for a long time. Got pretty lean before construction season started back up and I found new employment. Venison made the noodles and potatoes much more palatable, and kept me out of the pawn shop. God has a design.

Last time I had one of those days, I hiked back to the bag phone in the truck and called dad to bring the horses, too many ridges and creeks, but last day of season will do funny things to the mind of a teenager! I may not always hunt with the horses but when I don't I seem to need them and that deer, ramen noodles, mushrooms and bread wound up feeding me for a couple of months too come to think of it....... maybe it's the plan to teach us forethought all at once?

 

[FL-NC]

Truth be told my CZ 527 carbine is a gun I have taken hunting many times, but no deer ever presented themselves`s to be shot. I use this.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/ppu-762x39mm-sp-123-grain-20-rounds?a=1584498

Sorry I don`t have the info you ask for. All of my other rifles have killed deer with the exception the CZ 527 Carbine. And I went looking on the internet and found this about the ammo.



Hope this helps.[/QUOTE
Pretty much the same thing that happened to me- except with a deer instead of some water.

 

[GAF]

I am thinking that Hornady SST 7.62x39 might be a better round for deer.
I have a couple of boxes of these. They shoot very well.

 

[horsey300]

I am thinking that Hornady SST 7.62x39 might be a better round for deer.
I have a couple of boxes of these. They shoot very well.

Based on my experience with the ssts so far, I think they're a great match for the x39 and if I were running one, that's likely what I'd be rolling with, the rapid expansion at lower velocities and decent penetration should be perfect for the x39!

 

[whatnickname]

The .243 thread got me thinking about the firearms we use and the compromises we make, whether we realize it or not, with that choice. Also, the expectations we have and the philosophies we bring to the style of hunting we participate in.

I am a “Use enough gun” type of guy. I’m not being macho just pragmatic. I grew up in a shotgun zone hunting near property lines. I will sacrifice range and tolerate recoil so I do not have to wait for the perfect shot. I use the firearm that will give me the best chance of still harvesting the game even when everything goes wrong on me. I want the shortest possible death run.

This demands a cartridge, bullet, and rifle combination that will penetrate as far as possible to reach the vital organs even when every bone in the animal is hit.

I want through and through shots if possible. I am not a believer in “the bullet using up all its energy inside the animal”. That tells me more energy could have been deposited inside the animal and there would have been an exit wound if something larger was used. I use heavy for caliber bullets nearly always and sometimes premiums on top of that. I don’t like going down in weight just because a premium bullet is used. Premium bullets should ADD to the overall package of the rifle, cartridge, and bullet combination, not keep things equal by going down in weight from the heavy bullets your already using.

Handgun hunters are willing to give up range as well. So are bow hunters. I use a compound bow with a 70 lb draw. Many say 60 lbs is just fine. I know not everybody can handle heavier draws out there but I do believe in using the heaviest that is comfortable for you. I use 8-10 grain per inch arrows when many say 6-8 is fine. I use heavy FOC cut on contact chisel point broadheads to give every advantage to break through bone and have the arrow carry on through the animal. My crossbow is set up similarly with heavy FOC arrows and Ramcat broadheads. I also use a recurve in certain situations when fast shots are anticipated. Once again, heavy arrows and heavy tough cut on contact broadheads.

One might think the use of the “inferior” traditional archery equipment is going against my philosophy here. My philosophy is to use the equipment that gives me the highest degree of success. Sometimes that includes traditional archery gear. Some might say long range rifles will ensure better odds of success. Well, I’m not a long range shooter and my hunting situations preclude long range shots anyway. Other folks will have different needs in this regard.

Yes, less can and will work. Less had worked for centuries. Some folks use what they have already and I have tremendous respect for that. I find myself doing things a certain way but giving advice to others somewhat contrary to my own practices at times in this regard. I don’t think new hunters should go out and buy a bunch of gear. I think they should get in the woods and hunt.

I read a lot about these things. Probably too much. I read the tests done and the arbitrary scores given. Then I talk to people. I ask them questions. Detailed questions about their equipment and how it works for them. I try to get objective information from them as well as opinions.

I find all too often in every facet of life that there are theories and the way the books tell you and the way things play out in real life. Sometimes they are similar to each other and sometimes they are different but they are never the same.

Some are satisfied with what they perceive as good enough when there is a whole world of outcomes that are better than good enough if one gains enough experience. Once again, everyone will have a different view on these things.

I can’t imagine a scenario where I would choose a 223 over anything else larger if I had it. When, I hear about marginal cartridges being used I often think the person is doing it to see what they can get away with.

For the most part I agree with you. I try to match the weapon to the game I’m hunting. I read quite a bit of what is written by people regarded as experts as well as what is written in reloading manuals. While I’m sure that any number of deer have been taken with 223 and 22-250 for example, there’s just too much that can do wrong in the field IMO that would result in a wounded animal.

I’ve taken about 100 deer over the last 50 years and only lost two. In both cases the fault was mine due to poor shot placement. The caliber rifle I was using was more than equal to the task. I’m not a fan of “heavy for caliber” bullets in all cases. That argument in the case of the .243 makes sense to me...not so much for the larger calibers, as the heavier bullets in calibers like 7MM and 30 caliber are intended for large game. For this reason the bullets are designed with thicker jackets out of consideration for the body mass (resistance) the animals offer and the need to reach a balance between bullet expansion and penetration.

Case in point: Where I grew up in Florida, I had a friend that would not hunt deer with anything but a180 grain 30 caliber bullet. Those deer in Florida aren’t much larger than big dogs in many cases. He hit a buck one morning in the chest (broad side shot) three times using Remington 740. The deer ran nearly 100 yards and dropped on the center line of US 41. There was little to no evidence of expansion. So my much for the “ heavy bullets hit harder” argument. Fact of the matter is that heavy bullets require a good bit of target resistance to facilitate bullet expansion. I try to match bullet weight and construction to the game and conditions I’m hunting. For this reason I follow the recommendations of the manufacturer.

 

[LoonWulf]

So my much for the “ heavy bullets hit harder” argument. Fact of the matter is that heavy bullets require a good bit of target resistance to facilitate bullet expansion. I try to match bullet weight and construction to the game and conditions I’m hunting

I like heavier bullets because I can shoot softer bullets and expect similar total penetration.

 

[bsparker]

I feel like compromise is part of my family heritage. Grew up with not much money but dad found ways to trade electrical work for firearms. He worked three jobs to make ends meet. Result. I learned really well how to make three general tools do the job of one specialty tool.

Dad hunted with 30-30 no matter the situation for 30 years. I started out on .243, the main compromise was that it came in the form of a pre-64 Win Model 88. Very accurate but cycling the lever took some force and I remember my hands getting pinched regularly.

took a lot of deer with the .243 until I inherited the 30-30. Three years ago purchased a 30-06 because dad thought well of them and I didn’t own a bolt action. It’s definitely overkill for where I hunt, but I’ve found myself to be more comfortable with its bolt action and trigger. Result, I take better and more confident shots. I did carry the 30-30 this year for the Last day of the season out of nostalgia.

I tend to carry/hunt with what I’m comfortable with as long as it’s legal and I know my capabilities, if I stay within those for the tool I’ll be pretty much set.

Note on accuracy and distance. I had a gut shot on a doe when I was 20 out of the .243, had a long track. Finally found her and had to shoot her again. Then a long, 500 yard drag or so over hills. Learned my lesson. Much better at picking my shots based on the tool and situation.

Edit to add: Growing up we also used whatever hunting ammo was cheapest. Didn’t sight in for different weights. First time I shot the .243, I was allowed to put three rounds through. All three hit the target and dad said that was good enough and sent me out. Boy I’ve learned a lot since then and will set my sons up a little better.