The purpose of gun control?

Status
Not open for further replies.
A good friend of mine pulled out the "don't need an AK to hunt deer" argument just last night. after reminding him that the 2nd isn't about hunting, he went on to explain his literalist view of the constitution which basically said that the 2nd was put there so people would have guns when the british came with theirs, and the guns they were thinking about when they wrote it were muskets, so by all means, we should all have a musket. That way, if we miss, it will take 15 minutes to reload. :banghead: I kinda diverted the conversation after that because I know it's a battle I cannot win. In college he had a minor in political science and he is one of the best debaters I know.

I can see no reasoning behind his feelings. I can only assume it's fear. He hasn't shown much interest in going to the range with me but after this, I think I'll need to put more energy into making sure he at least tries it out.
 
Gun control is an elitist institution.

The 34 NFA contained provisions allowing corporations to more easily buy the restricted guns so that strike busting company thugs could be better armed than their union victims.

The racist aspect of gun control is well known.
 
You don't need the internet or talk radio to indulge in your 1st amendment "rights". We, the caring Liberals can provide anything you need in regard to your "freedom of speech" (as long as you ape our views).


:evil:
 
Our h/guns in Canada (Cdn) have been registered since '34. Still in goes Bill C-68 & sold to the Members of Parliment & Senators that it will only cost 85 million dollars, yet when challenged by a member of the oppositon of what would happen if it reached 150 million only told this was not so.

Right now it is around 2 Billion dollars & steadly climbing. A maze of red tape, which gets cival servants continual jobs. Obviously it does not effect the criminal for no one is going to fork out several hundred dollars to take a Cdn Firearms Safety Course, that must be passed at 82% or higher both written & physically, let alone apply for the Possession & Acquisition (PAL in short) which asks questions like "have your ever" or "Durin the past 5 yrs" (many being on a clean record with the police to drugs, to drinking, house hold problems, have you attempted suicide, treated for depression, emotional problems, been treated for alcohol, drug substances, under treatment or taking medication for either, your violence matters, fights, to the doozer at the last being :

"DURING THE PAST TWO YEARS:"
p) have your experienced a:
I) divorce,separationor breadown of asignificant relationship?
II) major failure in school, loss of a job or bankrupticy?

Put an check on the YES, rather then a NO & it will be some yrs along with maze or red tape to possibly(?) obtain the PAL.

If you only went through all the delays & frustration we did for some years you will shake your heads in dismay.

Said PAL is for purchasing any for of f/arm, ammo, gun powder, primers & even more.

Upon each transaction of a f/arm it is usually another $25.00 each time only was dropped during Fed election just a month ago & will probably come back into effect. For they need to keep those Govt employees working & taking in monthly cheques.

Also once every five yrs said PAL has to be renewed & you must point out how you did in the Cdn Firearms Safety Course, again, AND again must answer a pile of red tape questions.

Said PAL is a "must" as one must carry it like they would a Drivers License as Police or Conservation Officers or lord know who can demand it.

Of interest the PAL knows more about us then anything else YET it is NOT accepted as a means of ID over a drivers license BASICALLY because less the 25% of the Cdn adults would have one or be able to pass all to have one!!!!

Yes every h/gun had to be registered & all long bbl guns had to be registered so any Cdn citizen that has an old .22 rife or possilby shotgun in some dusty corner & probabably not used it mast 20 to 40 yrs 'automatically becomes a criminal' if said gun(s) is located in their home & them not haveing a PAL or proper registeration.

If you only knew all the red tape along with frustration with mixed up civil servants in obtaining a PAL & then the registeration of said fireams you would be shaking your head in dismay.
 
. . . he went on to explain his literalist view of the constitution which basically said that the 2nd was put there so people would have guns when the british came with theirs, and the guns they were thinking about when they wrote it were muskets, so by all means, we should all have a musket. That way, if we miss, it will take 15 minutes to reload.
Muskets is half of the story. When the second amendment was written the peasantry was in possession of the most dangerous firearm known to man . . . .the Kentucky Long Rifle. It could kill at 300 yards compared to 50 yards with a musket if you could aim it properly.
 
Someone remind me which Amendment goes like,

A well-regulated deer population, being necessary to the security of a free state, the rights of the people to shoot and kill deer, shall not be infringed.

:rolleyes:
 
Great Poster, Oleg!:D Kit really is an excellent model for them.
I have often debated 'hunters' who are anti-gun; I ask them what model rifle/shotgun or :eek: pistol, they use for hunting, and they usually will wax on poetically about 'Ol bessy, their main huntin' iron, and unless it's a Ruger Model 1 or a Browning M1885, I will mention that their O'l bessy would be banned by the esteemed Satanors...er....Senators from the People's Soviet Republic of Taxachussetts...er Massachussetts if they could do it. Usually outright denial or stunned disbelief is the response, "OH. no they just want to ban Evil Black Rifles, nobody deer hunts with them", to which I reply "I have, and will again" (if I ever hunt in a rifle zone again.) I usually mention my hunting shotgun, which is an 870 with a SpeedFeed III stock (pistolgripped) , and looks EBR (EBS?) as all get out, and say "So how is my 870 more evil than yours? (Or your BPS, 11-87, etc.) And I usually use the paraphrase of Dietrich Bonhoeffer that Oleg made a poster of a while back, "First, they banned the "assault weapons", ...." Most usually still don't believe that that is the avowed goal of most Dems., and unfortunately, some Republicans, too.:( And they will be in denial until the door kicking starts with some regularity, that is until some of their doors start getting kicked.....:banghead:
 
The poster is good, but the second phrase is a sentence fragment, therefore the period should be removed. I'm sorry for being a grammar Nazi but if the poster is to be used in a public venue it ought to be totally correct.
 
For 100 years, the 15th Amendment was as widely ignored and unenforced as the 2nd Amendment is today

Almost none of the Law School texts on Constitutional Law give more than the briefest treatment of the 2nd Amendment.

The one I used, by Cohen & Varat, practically ignored the 2nd completely.
 
and the guns they were thinking about when they wrote it were muskets, so by all means, we should all have a musket.

The Founders weren't thinking of cell phones, fax machines, computers, the internet, television, or the printing press, either. So, since those items are used to commit bank fraud, credit card fraud, computer fraud, coordinate illegal and terrorist activities, distrubute child pornagraphy, communicate dangerous, extremist ideologies, and conduct a wide range of other negative activities that cost the government, the national economy, and private citizens billions of dollars each year, access to them must be restricted. This is not a First Amendment issue, mind you, since the Founders didn't have any idea that these devices would someday exist, and could not have predicted the havoc that would come of them. You are still free to posess your pens and parchment paper, and use them as you please, just as the Founders intended.

What does your friend say to that?
 
Ooooooooh, score one (no...checking rule book)...score *five* for the Sarge.

And the crowd goes wild.

Good one. :)

Sawdust
 
(stammering irationally: ) BU...But they didn't mean that.

I have used that arguement quite effectively against pro-musket anti-gunners. They get real mad
 
If you subsidise somthing, you get more of it. If you tax something, you get less of it. They are taxing guns. Those who would ban guns out of existence will have a fight on their hands and ultimately fail.

Those who would tax gun out of existence will ultimately succeed, as the ever-increasing water temperature boils the frog.

They desire the same end - ban all guns. The taxers know they will achieve taxing all guns out of existence if they patiently keep raising the costs of purchasing and owning guns. It is a brilliant plan.
 
The Founders weren't thinking of cell phones, fax machines, computers, the internet, television, or the printing press, either. So, since those items are used to commit bank fraud, credit card fraud, computer fraud, coordinate illegal and terrorist activities, distrubute child pornagraphy, communicate dangerous, extremist ideologies, and conduct a wide range of other negative activities that cost the government, the national economy, and private citizens billions of dollars each year, access to them must be restricted. This is not a First Amendment issue, mind you, since the Founders didn't have any idea that these devices would someday exist, and could not have predicted the havoc that would come of them. You are still free to posess your pens and parchment paper, and use them as you please, just as the Founders intended.

::SWISH::

Crowd goes wild.
 
They desire the same end - ban all guns. The taxers know they will achieve taxing all guns out of existence if they patiently keep raising the costs of purchasing and owning guns. It is a brilliant plan.

Way to go people, some great points made including the above.
Thanks for helping to illuminate the vermin.

cheers, ab

ps: I do like that poster Oleg, it is these kinds of visually based
messages disseminated that will win it for all of us
(even the antis who do not yet understand that they will benefit from an intact 2nd amendment).
 
MAN i love that 1st amendment argument - i've used the 1st amendment to defend the 2nd before.... but not NEARLY as effective as that... i def not as smart as i think i am <grin>

SOOOO bowing to the greater minds...

what is the argument that ok - so we get the most powerful personal fireamrs of our time.... but shouldn't they be in "well regulated" militias?

I know to me - every person was a militia man... should we be called. And should have our own weapons... in order to serve a militia that is unable due to funding or what not to supply us w/ such....

whats the argument? its a usuall footstep for anti's, and its hard for me to argue the fact that in the sentense it seem's very tied to a militia, even tho at the time in my mind - it meant everyone - since anyone could be called to form a militia, could have a firearm in order to be able to man such militia.

Course - they are all drawing lines - the line in 34' says i can't go to wally world and buy a auto weapon... cause the criminals might get thier hands on em - as they DID during prohibition... never mind that they are still getting them during todays times - but seemingly in much lower numbers. (its not often we see a *crazy guy* sprays crowd w/ fully auto weapon... course - the extent of my knowledge of prohibition crime is "movies" so i'll take it on the chin for not knowing the "relative levels" of violence commited w/ those fullauto weapons "back in the day")

J/Tharg!
 
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3642/1/

[BLOCKQUOTE]
.comment: The Digital Millennium Rape Act
What to Expect

Dennis E. Powell
Monday, July 23, 2001 02:23:15 AM

WASHINGTON -- Federal law enforcement officials today began rounding up men for alleged violation of the new Digital Millennium Rape Act.

The law, which went into effect June 30, bans "possession of any item or device that makes it possible to commit the crime of rape." It was approved last month by a narrow margin in both the House of Representatives and the Senate following intense negotiations during which a provision was added which excempts government employees, including senators and representatives, from the new law. The legislation was necessary to bring the U.S. into compliance with a treaty negotiated in Japan two years ago by the Clinton administration, but thusfar unsigned by any country. International pressure on the U.S. to sign the accord was intense, however, coming especially from the European Union and many non-European third-world nations. The treaty specifies actions that the United States must take, making no mention of other nations.

"This landmark legislation serves notice on all would-be rapists: If you've got the equipment, we'll lock you up," said the bill's sponsor, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-California), immediately after its passage.

Critics of the bill argued at the time that mere ability to commit a crime should not itself be a crime, but were overwhelmed by an intense public relations campaign mounted by proponents. Among the existing laws cited in defense of the bill were federal gun regulations and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which make possession of firearms and software, respectively, illegal.

"If you can do the crime, you will do the time," said Boxer. " This is a crime prevention measure -- by the time someone has actually committed an offense, it's too late."


Silly, Isn't It

The above is not real -- if you thought it was, get help at once. But it's a demonstration of the direction in which things are headed, and unless this trend is seen as a whole, there's not a chance of stopping it, if indeed a chance of stopping it still exists at all.

Monday's arrest of Dmitry Sklyarov for violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act has outraged many in the hacker community. Skylarov, who it is now reported also sold password-cracking software to the FBI, is accused of making it possible to circumvent certain technology owned by Adobe Systems Inc. Note that he is not accused of having employed this software to circumvent that technology but merely of having demonstrated that it can be done.

As readers of this column cannot have escaped noticing, there is no one louder in defense of copyright protections than I am. But there is a difference between the ability to violate copyright and actually doing so.

The community is enraged, but the rest of the world doesn't give much of a toot, one way or the other. Sound familiar?

That is how totalitarianism is achieved. You pick a fairly small, even fringe, community, and you use them to create the underpinnings for what could result in far broader controls. There's no broad outcry, because people figure it doesn't effect them, and they're too busy worrying about the truly important stuff, such as how the Yankees are doing.

You may think that what follows is some kind of right-wing rant from out in the fever swamps, but hear me out.

In the early 1930s, organized mobs were shooting each other to pieces. Something, it was agreed, needed to be done. Thus, a law was passed banning things like fully automatic weapons and sawed-off shotguns. No one shopped to think that shooting people was already illegal, so the chances were few that mobsters would say, "Oh, my! It's illegal to have this tommygun. I guess we'll have to stop bumping people off." Mob rubouts continued, though only really well organized, successful outfits could afford good weapons; making them illegal drove up the price. Everybody else had to use knives, piano wire, and bombs under the driver's seat.

In the 1960s, a president was shot and killed, apparently with a cheap Italian 6.5mm military rifle purchased through the mail. In his infinite wisdom Sen. Thomas Dodd (who later left the Senate under a cloud of scandal) decided that the problem here was the means whereby Lee Harvey Oswald had gotten the weapon. The nation, which has never paid all that much attention, said, "Fine, go ahead," and a law was passed which banned such sales. All this did was drive the price of firearms up. The murder rate -- and at some point we must consider that this was the problem supposedly being addressed -- went up, too.

The country never stopped to consider that the problem is the intent to commit a crime, and the carrying out of that intent, rather than the ability to do so. More important, nobody ever stopped to note that absolutely everyone is capable of committing crimes, and no amount of legislation will ever change that. If you have decided to kill someone, you will kill that person and there's no stopping you. Besides, killing someone is already illegal -- how much attention are you going to pay to lesser offenses?

To the extent that this fact was raised, the response was weak, but enough: Well, nobody really needs these weapons. And the laws are to protect us, right?

True. But there are a lot of things that nobody really needs, but that can be used for evil purposes. Computers, for instance.


Why This Is Pertinent (p. 2)

There is no doubt that some readers are incensed by the example I've employed. They've bought into the control argument without giving any thought to its logical conclusions. Those conclusions involve the fact that it's impossible to favor control of one item because of what might happen unless you're prepared to accept that argument for all items because of what might happen.

The "community" gets its undies in a twist whenever it's suggested that legislation is necessary to protect children from the unsavory influences of the Internet or of AOL chatrooms. Anyone who favors controls can point to incidents at least as inflamatory as those employed in gaining acquiescence to laws limiting gun ownership. Children have been lured from virtual chatrooms to real rooms in tawdry motels by predatory perverts. Children who read the -1 comments on Slashdot will be exposed to things that are unfit even for adults. Children can find lots of things on the Internet that no one could favor their finding. All it will take is one really high profile case to put computers in the same class of infernal device to which guns have already been consigned.

(Additionally, the established news media, whose influence has been diluted by the emergence of alternative news sources over the Internet, will be willing promoters of that kind of legislation, believing as they do that the First Amendment is theirs and theirs alone.)

Consider the reports that an Islamic terror master, Osama Bin Laden, was distributing instructions over the Internet and via CD. There was a lot of coverage, and in the back of the minds of many was registered the notion that something ought to be done. The precedent having been set -- that we don't deal with criminals directly, but instead fart in their general direction -- the idea of a system like Carnivore didn't rouse much public outcry. After all, it's there to protect us, right?

Do you suppose there would be much objection to a law offering imprisonment to, and seizure of the computer equipment of, anyone who deliberately tries to confound Carnivore by, say, appending a list of trigger words to the end of email messages?

The cliche is "slippery slope," and it means that once the first, seemingly harmless, little step is taken, the long downhill slide begins, with ever increasing speed, until the bottom is hit. The first step was taken a long time ago.

It's impossible to favor gun regulations and oppose computer regulations and remain philosophically consistent. In both cases, the governing factor is not actual misuse but potential misuse.

Which brings us back to poor Dmitry. (And, paradoxically, to Adobe -- what a month they've had, huh? First the KIllustrator flap, and now this. A German lawyer goes after KDE in Germany, citing potential violation of a U.S. trademark owned by a U.S. company. Then the U.S. arrests a Russian programmer visiting the U.S. for alleged violation of the DMCA with reference to Adobe while in Russia. As I've mentioned before, the application of law on an international scale is a lot thornier than its proponents would have us think.)

What is he charged with? Not actually doing anything wrong, but instead with producing the means whereby people can do wrong. Might as well round up the employees of the brick plant or the rock quarry, because they produce stuff that can be ill-used, too.

It is interesting and ominous to hear, now, that Dmitry helped the FBI come up with ways of cracking passwords. This will pass largely unnoticed, because most people probably think that it's a good thing for the FBI to be able to get past passwords -- after all, it's to protect us, right? The downhill slide picks up speed.

Violation of copyright is a bad thing, but just as anyone who wants to can commit a murder, anyone who wants to can violate a copyright. If a gun is not available, use a knife. If a knife is not available, use a rope. If a rope is not available, use a rock. And if a computer is not available, use a copier. If a copier is not available, use a typewriter. If a typewriter is not available, use pen and paper. If those things are not available, scratch someone else's manuscript into the mud with a stick or your finger.

There are those who think that outlawing computers, copiers, typewriters, and mud would be the appropriate respective responses, because they haven't quite figured out what to do with you, yourself, and your desire to copy something someone else owns. Dmitry gets nicked because that's easier than tracking down actual wrongdoers.

Government is very adept at isolating little communities within the populace and taking away the freedoms important to them, because the rest of the populace just doesn't care. Then, government moves on to the next little group, and does the same thing there. That which cannot be done at once can be done incrementally -- the slippery slope. Pick a group, make it the enemy of everyone else, and you'll get support for whatever you do. History shows us a whole lot of truly reprehensible actions achieved in this way.

But, hey, something needs to be done, right?

Because then we'll all be protected.

We're picking up speed. Enjoy the ride.

[/BLOCKQUOTE]
 
Since we're discussing First Amendment analogies on this thread, I'll repeat something I posted on another thread about the subject that I hope some of you might find interesting:

[BLOCKQUOTE]
September 18th, 2004 03:54 PM

he just told me this evening that he wishes we were like England

He wants television sets to be licensed and registered?

Well, if licensing and registration doesn't violate the Second Amendment, I guess it wouldn't violate the First, either.

http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/

[BLOCKQUOTE]
Do I Need A License?

If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence.

The type of licence you'll need and how to go about getting one will depend upon your individual circumstances.

To find out more, please select from the options on the left or call us with any questions on 0870 241 6468.


Detection and Penalties

Using television receiving equipment to receive or record broadcast television programmes without the correct licence is a criminal offence.
You could therefore face prosecution and a hefty fine of up to £1,000.

You may be asking yourself 'how will they know if I'm using a TV without a licence?' The answer is through a number of different methods.

At the heart of our operation is the TV Licensing database. It has details of over 26 million UK addresses.

Our officers have access to this computer system and a fleet of detector vans and hand-held detectors to track down and prosecute people who use a television without a licence. To find out how effective our methods are click here.

Each year it becomes easier to find and prosecute people breaking the law in this way.

So please be aware:

* Using a television without an appropriate licence is a criminal offence.
* Every day we catch an average of 1,200 people using a TV without a licence.

There is no valid excuse for using a television and not having a TV Licence, but some people still try - sometimes with the most ridiculous stories ever heard. To read some of our favourites click here.


TV Dealer Information

How TV Licensing affects Dealers
The Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967 (as amended) requires any dealer who sells or rents TV receiving equipment (whether the equipment is new or second-hand) to notify TV Licensing within 28 days of each transaction, giving full details of the buyer or renter.

Don't forget this also includes:

* Computers fitted with electronic broadcast cards (TV Cards).

* TV Cards themselves.

* Set-top boxes.

Failure to do so may mean a £1,000 fine per offence for you, or any store manager employed by your company.

August 2000 was the first time a major retailer was prosecuted under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967. One of its outlets was fined a total of £2,500 including costs for not passing on details of six customers who had purchased television sets. More recently in October 2000, a second major retailer was found guilty of five such offences and fined over £2,000 including costs.

If you have not registered with TV Licensing and you sell TV equipment then call 0870 240 1293 or fax us on 0870 240 1706 or simply click here, print and complete the form and post it back to us.

Personal information that you provide with your registration will only be used by the TV Licensing Authority (BBC and its service providers) to help administer the TV Licence system, including licence applications, fee collection and enforcement. Your personal information will not be provided to anyone else unless we are obliged by law to do so. If you wish to see our Privacy Policy, click here.

TV Licensing, (Dealer Department)
Customer Service Centre
PO Box 88
Darwen
BB3 1YX

What your help means for us

Once you've notified our TV Licensing Dealer Centre of sales or rentals, the information is logged onto our database. We then compare this list of television owners against details of current licence holders. If they don't match up, then thanks to you, we're probably onto a TV Licence evader.

Three simple options for sending your notifications

1. Computer disk
For details call our TV Licensing Dealer Centre on 0870 240 1293
Fax: 0870 240 1706

2. e-mail - [email protected]

3. Manual forms - For forms phone on 0870 240 1293
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

[/BLOCKQUOTE]
 
what about knife control? screw driver control? maybe bat control? people get killed everyday with cars, knifes ect. taking away guns won't stop that. i think poeple that fear guns fear them because they don't trust themselves with a gun. they are affraid of what they might do if they had one and therefore assume everybody else is the same way and shouldn't be trusted with a firearm.
 
The fundamental reason for gun control is class, race and ethic warfare. Basically a power structure wishes to remove the ability of its perceived enemies to be a threat to power structure and/or be able to resist the will of the power structure.

The history of genocide clearly makes that point as one example. The racist origin of many gun control laws is similar.

Kerry and Bush both equate guns with rich, spoiled brats shooting at skeet and birdies. While Bush did sign the TX CHL bill that was probably because Rove told him to. Lately, he says nothing about the RKBA as a right for the protection of self and defense against tyranny. His web site is just about sportsmen.

Kerry of course is even worse. However, neither of them are real friends of the RKBA.
 
The only non-government folks who could afford a $200 tax in 1934 probably worked for Al Capone.

Kind of ironic. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top