This dont make sense

[therealwormey]

doing reseach to load CFE for comparison to other powders i ran across data that seems contradictory than rule of thumb.
looking to load Xtreme 165 & 180 gr PFP.
berrys recomends "We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. "
Xtreme says"Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities."

if thats the case the wt grain data on hodgdon dont make sense. the data for 165 berb FP which is berry Plated is higher than 165g sierra JHP. i know berb fp may not be hard cast lead data but its still higher than SIE JHP. what i'm i missing here.

165g berb fp
--------start-----max
CFE-----6.9-------7.5
--------versus------
165g sierra JHP
--------start-----max
CFE-----6.0-------6.8

 

[Sunray]

What cartridge?

 

[rcmodel]

What caliber?

I started out figuring it was .40 S&W.
The Berry 165 in that caliber is a Hollow-Base flat point.

As such, it is much softer then the Sierra JHP.
Because the base under the bearing surface is hollow.


That should reduce pressure somewhat.

rc

 

[tightgroup tiger]

The Berry's plated bullets don't build as much pressure because their softer. They are just copper plated and thinly plated I will add. They have a soft lead core with this thin plate so they engrave to the rifling easier with less effort, so it takes more powder to get the pressure up to make velocity.

The jackets on jacketed bullets are really hard compared to a thin plating so they have much more friction in the barrel so the powder builds more pressure more quickly than the same amount would with softer lead or plated bullets.

Most hard cast bullets are 22-24 brn hardness and jackets are somewhere in the low 30s brn.

 

[mdi]

Not sure what berb bullets are (are you talking about plated?). But your data is for two different bullets. Data will vary with different components, even bullets of the same weight...

 

[therealwormey]

i did forget to mention .40 S&W. but berrys site list two 165g .40 . One is HBFP and the other just listed FP. even thou i'm loading X-tremes i thought i would reference the plated data. the hodgdon book doesnt specify BERB FP to be hollow base or not. It would be nice if they did. Not a big fan off berrys as ive loaded a few .44 and .45 PFP and they were not HBFP. seemed like a lot of copper dust in the box and plating was thin.
I did mention loading Xtreme 180 & 165 PFP. I thought it was understood that means PLATED flat point. and i did say "the data for 165 berb FP which is berry Plated " so i thought i made that point clear too.
Thanks for the input and sorry for not stating the caliber. sometimes when your thinking something you forget everbody else may not be thinking the same thing.

 

[TenRing]

I don't know but that's what Hodgdon called them. Could these "Berb" bullets be just another brand and jacketed but not plated? That really is too much pressure to push a plated bullet without having serious "Berry juice". problems. (Copper-plated leading).

 

[buck460XVR]

What caliber?

I started out figuring it was .40 S&W.
The Berry 165 in that caliber is a Hollow-Base flat point.

As such, it is much softer then the Sierra JHP.
Because the base under the bearing surface is hollow.


That should reduce pressure somewhat.

rc

And the hollow base in a way, increases case capacity, thus lowering pressure.

 

[snakeye]

I know that Berry has a plated bullet, and since they didn't specify HBFP I used CFE load data for the 40SW shown on Hogdon's site using Extreme 165 gr FPs. Shot test loads of 7.0, 7.2 and 7.4 with no problem with the test loads.

I had a hiccup about one third of the way through with the gun I was using and had to change guns (was not a problem due to ammo my slide release broke off). So I am reloading them again and retesting them just so I have complete test data with one gun

 

[GLOOB]

Being softer and slightly more oversize, plated bullets usually take less powder than jacketed. Similar to the reason cast bullets take less powder than jacketed. But I suppose there could be exceptions.

Berry's 165 gr FP definitely comes in two flavors. The difference between a hollow base and plain base is bearing surface. Also a hollow base might bump up and seal the bore, better. The case capacity doesn't change, though, as long as the OAL is the same.

There is a reasonable explanation, though. The Sierra JHP could be shaped such that case capacity is less at the same OAL. In fact, due to the hollow cavity in the nose, this is quite often the case when comparing a HP to non-HP, and almost always the case when talking about 40SW bullets, which usually come in some form of FP or truncated cone very similar to a HP. (Take a look at 45ACP JHP vs cast RN load data, and you might see a similar picture. For many powders the loads are very similar. Why 45ACP in particular? I think it has to do with the size of the cavity in those big ole bullets.)

And/or the Sierra JHP might be shaped so that is has to be seated deeper. As an example, Hornady XTP bullets need to be seated quite short in many guns to accomodate the shape of the ogive (manufacturer recommendation of 1.060" OAL in 9mm, for instance). That's a double whammy.

Let's also not forget that load data is compiled over time. It's not like when they tested and added load info for the berry's, they also went back and rested every other bullet in their load book. Sure, someone might have noticed that this looked funny. If the older data looked suspiciously high, someone might be concerned enough to retest it. If it looks low, then there's the saying that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[rcmodel]

The case capacity doesn't change, though, as long as the OAL is the same.

yes, it actually does change.
The hollow base of the bullets adds to the effective internal case capacity.

(If it doesn't seat deeper in the case.)

However a Solid base JHP is likely to take up more internal case capacity then the skirt on a hollow base bullet of the same length.

rc

 

[therealwormey]

I know that Berry has a plated bullet, and since they didn't specify HBFP I used CFE load data for the 40SW shown on Hogdon's site using Extreme 165 gr FPs. Shot test loads of 7.0, 7.2 and 7.4 with no problem with the test loads.

I had a hiccup about one third of the way through with the gun I was using and had to change guns (was not a problem due to ammo my slide release broke off). So I am reloading them again and retesting them just so I have complete test data with one gun

yea, i used berb too, heres my results from 2 10 shot strings.

Bullet-Type-Weight-Pwdr-Grns-Primer-Velocity-Std Dev-Ftlbs-Energy
X Trm-PRNFP-165---CFE---7--CCI SP-1112----12-----452----183

 

[therealwormey]

yes, it actually does change.
The hollow base of the bullets adds to the effective internal case capacity.

(If it doesn't seat deeper in the case.)

However a Solid base JHP is likely to take up more internal case capacity then the skirt on a hollow base bullet of the same length.

rc

good point, thats why i think they should list berb as FP or HBFP,,seating depth the same on each it would mean more combustion space for the HBFP so less pressure built.True?

 

[quaid]

I'm going to agree with Gloob- about the internal case volume remaining the same whether it is a hollow base or flat base- ASSUMING that the ogive is the same, oal is the same, weight is the same. If the same volume of bullet is outside the case, then the remaining volume must be inside.

The skirt of the hollow base has to be somewhere, just deeper inside the case... Inside the case decreases case volume.

 

[1SOW]

Those same Berry's TP bullets in 124gr 9mm essentially "add" about .005" more open case space than indicated by the seating depth. In 40 cal it's probably more than that.

It does require more powder to make speed than the non-hollow base same 124gr bullet at the same seating depth. .

 

[therealwormey]

i think they should list berb as FP or HBFP,,

i must retract an earlier statement.

i was lookin up a couple other calibers online and the online version does list different types,BERB HBRN TP, BERB RN, BERB FP