Thousands of Pilots Won't Fly Armed, Blame TSA

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Artesia, NM... Great place to visit!

Thanks for the positive response, Mr. Grinch!

Available training, while not perfect, is a start to something better, hopefully... never give up! I am very proud of him and hope he'll teach me everything he can as there is always more to learn and no room for complacency. As far as bruises go, he looks good in blue! The only real concern might be a cut on the magazine loading thumb.

We have heard only positive remarks from others about this training so wish it were available to everyone, not just the pros. Of course, in my humble opinion, the REAL solution to preventing another 9/11 is to let law abiding, trained, handgun owners take charge in the cabin! Let the pilots concentrate on flying and let us citizens protect our lives and theirs!
 
I did read it carefully, and I re-read it. You characterized pilots who are complaining about quite valid problems in the FFDO program as "whiners" and "not serious".

You put yourself into the category, not me. I just figured you were struggling with some of the issues.

I don't know how you know this to be an "objective fact", but there are roughly 40,000 pilots who have expressed an interest in this, yet have chosen not to get in.

That list was a no jeopardy general interest petition off of the APSA website, not an official application document. For APSA to characterize it as anything else is disengenous. It is irrelavent, all TSA has to do is point to the program and say- "lots of pilots are signing up for the real one".

APSA also brings up the screening issue. How do you convince Congress by claiming that pilots don't need to be screened because of their impeccable credentials, then argue that screening is a threat? By definition, they should have nothing to fear.

Is it not disengenous for pilots to claim that pilots recieve ongoing psych evaluations? That simply isn't true. Isn't it a fact that pilots do commit suicide? A few years ago, I read a front page story in the WSJ about an airline pilot who stuck a fork into his wife. I am sure that the airlines would gladly provide reams of data about their pilots that would justify some modicum of screening. To think that a bill would pass without that requirement is not credible.

Do you think that every airline pilot should by virtue of his airline job (recall that airlines have a wide spectrum of psych screening and testing during their individual application processes) should qualify to carry a gun or would their be a small number who should be rejected?

Do you know what the actual rejection rate is? Do you know how many pilots have been discipline in any way for being rejected?

I ask, because these questions serve to determine whether the current screening is reasonable, especially in the view of the Congress.

The FFDOs I've flown with are not reckless...the program is. IMO they are playing by some very stupid rules--rules that may end with lost/stolen FFDO weapons, or a ND in the cockpit, and I won't participate in them.

Then by your own admission shouldn't you as Pilot in Command, be vehemently opposing FFDO's carrying firearms on your jet? By your definition, it is a DANGEROUS program that may result in a discharge in the cockpit!

The reality is that the procedures and training are designed to exactly avoid inadvertant discharges, both on and off of the aircraft. Some of those very procedures are what upsets some of the pilots. They are also designed to get the firearm into action in a hearbeat should the need arise.

Haven't 110 pound girls made it through? What do you say when she shows up at the hearings on the new bill and testifies as to the "difficulty" of the program?

Some people look at things and see all of the obstacles and reasons not to try- others just see it as a challenge and attack.

I guess it comes down to this, you have to see this as larger than yourself in order to participate. None of this is for our convenience, but if you want the tools and skills, you just deal with it to get them. You don't beat murderous thugs sitting on the sidelines.

Grinch
 
Of course, in my humble opinion, the REAL solution to preventing another 9/11 is to let law abiding, trained, handgun owners take charge in the cabin!

One of my warrior oriented buds put it this way- You hand a six inch knife to every passenger as they board- assuming a reasonable amount of hijackers, this would ensure that they would meet overwhelming opposition.

Sort of the Mutually Assured Distruction concept. :D

Grinch
 
You put yourself into the category, not me....
As I read your post, you were using a broad brush to paint those with objections to the program as "whiners" and "not serious". Now you are trying to put a fine point on it by saying you're not including me.

That list...[the ASPA list of 40,000 pilots willing but so far not in the program]
You're right that the ASPA list may be quite irrelevant. But that could also be claimed of the TSA position that they're training all the pilots who want to be in. The question is not which list is valid, but whether the 40,000 have a valid complaint.

APSA also brings up the screening issue...
and
...whether the current screening is reasonable...
The psych and background screenings are a fine point. As I read the ASPA position, they are not opposed to the TSA screenings, but rather the depth of the screenings, which BTW are deeper than most other fed LEOs. Why might this be? Perhaps, because the TSA has been opposed to the program all along, and seeks to limit participation? Hmmmm? Also keep in mind that the TSA sent the names of several pilots to the FAA with the recommendation that their licenses be revoked (with no due process, BTW). And that there have been rumors of the TSA illegally providing unfavorable information obtained in these screenings to pilots' employers. These actions have chilling effects on pilot partipation.

...Isn't it a fact that pilots do commit suicide...
As do policemen, judges and doctors. Your point?

Then by your own admission shouldn't you as Pilot in Command, be vehemently opposing FFDO's carrying firearms on your jet? By your definition, it is a DANGEROUS program that may result in a discharge in the cockpit!
Actually, if I were opposed to the FFDO program, I would have no power to limit a FFDO copilots involvement or deployment of his weapon. The same goes for a company. The FFDOs (in my experience) are not dangerous...the program is.

Haven't 110 pound girls made it through?
What could this possibly have to do with anything?

In reference to the training, the FFDOs I've flown with and spoken with have nothing be good things to say. The training isn't just good, it's Excellent. I'm also told that the Artesia training is superior to the Glynco training.

I too respect FFDOs. With that said, I still have problems with the current program. I would only ask that others respect that these problems are not trivial (as witnessed by the great numbers who are not yet involved).
 
FFDO Training...

Hey guys... What's this "he says, they say" stuff? Nothing is perfect and ANY system can be torn apart, but if you have no recourse just bide your time... but don't look away. Bickering just raises blood pressures. I am under the impression that pilots, in general, are able to look ahead and just take things in stride... or maybe that's the old school? How old are all of you, anyway?

I can say, secondhand, that unless you've been there (here in Artesia) don't knock it. Nothing came up in interviews that was THAT questionable, but a lot has been learned about self defense and I'm headed out to take photos of the 727s used for training. There is a lot of information to be learned about defense tactics as well as general firearm so take the training... just do it! If you question the psychological stuff stay out... just keep sane in ANY situation. Dentists, by the way, have the highest suicide count, did you know? After training, you don't HAVE to carry and so don't have to play the games. Sure the rules aren't good, but they will be changing thanks to those who are in the program and suggesting the changes... I'm thinking of deadheading problems in particular.

I go out on a limb by suggesting that ANY government program might have an agenda... or not. Maybe THAT is the problem... BTW, WHO IS VOTING LP in 2004?
:D
 
No one is bickering here over trivial matters. There are important issues that are being misrepresented, resulting in pilots not participating, and leaving cockpits undefended. That is a serious issue.

Pilots are making their decisions not to attend on false premises, specifically directed by a few people who had all sorts of self-convinced plans for the program that were nixed by the realities of the Federal Government.

Now they are advocating the Wilson-Bunning Bill, which according to the aforementioned articles, would end screening, immediately deputize pilots based on prior military qualifications that are completely irrelavent to the cockpit situation. It goes too far, and isn't going to happen because it removes the quality control that was needed to get the original legislation passed.

So my message to people who might be considering volunteering is to not accept as gospel, the agenda of a single group, which has found its way into several areas of the media, and has found allies in willing organizations, who are simply taking what they say as the whole truth. Talk to armed pilots, find out what their experiences are, and make an informed decision. It is obvious that we have an airline Captain here that is basing his decision on negatively biased and purposely distorted misinformation. Considering what is at stake, that is troubling.

For you Az Lib- Answer the Call

I sincerely wish you the best in whatever you decide.

Grinch
 
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Just take the training...

No one is "bickering" here over "trivial matters". There are important issues that are being misrepresented, resulting in pilots not participating, and leaving cockpits undefended. That is a serious issue. But NOT applying and NOT going through the training leads nowhere the way I see it. Do what you feel comfortable with though!

Taking the training, no matter what, will lead to change for the positive. Meet the "enemy" head on. What is the alternative?

Y'all just do what you want... the way I see it I would play the game so that I COULD carry then see what happens next. You do what YOU want!

As far as LP concerns... I am Lady of Liberty (February) in the LP calendar... see you in Atlanta for the National Convention?
 
So the upshot is this:

The thread started as a plea for volunteers to go to several airports nationwide to hand out leaflets to embarking passengers in the hope we can get them to pressure Minetta, et al, and the TSA in general, to lessen the requirements.

What we have gotten is a couple of p---ing contests and, with the exception of Labgrade and Gunsmith who were already on board when the thread started, not a one of you is willing to spend a pleasant afternoon handing out several hundred pieces of 5 1/2" X 4 1/4" paper.

Maybe that's just too much heavy lifting.

Makes ya feel right proud, now, don't it?
 
Mr Grinch

... it seems it would be more effective than handing out flyers in a remote spot designated by the airport authorities ...
:confused:

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your response, however, is legion -- "I don't wanna!"

So having this article out in the ether -- depending on the willingness of the public-at-large to read it -- is superior to handing a notice to a captive audience who are about to participate in the subject activity? What am I missing?

What "remote spot designated by the airport authorities" are you speaking of? If we were to do this, it would be at the entry to the secure area where the passengers are passing through the Magnetometer, x-ray equipment, and the Imelda Marcos Memorial Shoe Inspection Station.

If the authorities attempt to move us, or otherwise interfere with our Constitutionally protected leafleting activities, they will be handed a copy of Pruneyard v. Robbins and be placed on notice that they are committing a crime which has criminal and civil ramifications. Hopefully, we will be able to have an attorney on-site to present this to them.

If they continue to interfere with us, we simply take their name and leave. Our attorneys take care of the rest.

We are looking for people who want to participate in a proactive demonstration; which could glean us some positive press on the unwillingness of the TSA to implement the program without the roadblocks and cost requirements to the pilots.

All others need not apply -- as though they actually would, anyway.
 
have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your response, however, is legion -- "I don't wanna!"

Evidently. You are are missing quite a bit. I don't agree with your position. I don't need to.

However, I respect your position and willingness to try to put something together. To my knowledge, attempts to get pilots to picket at airports on the matter have not been successful. Instead, media blitzes have been organized with friendly reporters.

You might want to consult with an attorney, and at least call the airport authority before you attempt to picket at the terminal. Knowing what you are getting into in this situation is good advice.

Grinch
 
Evidently.
You didn't explain your contention. You merely posted an article.
You are are missing quite a bit.
It's not hard to miss "quite a bit" when "quite a bit" of the author's contentions are missing.
I don't agree with your position.
Noone said that you had to agree with my position.
I don't need to.
Quite correct.
To my knowledge, attempts to get pilots to picket at airports on the matter have not been successful.
I would love to just get a few THRers to go with me let alone airline pilots. I have yet to approach ALPA on this issue.
Instead, media blitzes have been organized with friendly reporters.
That will be covered if I can ever get more than three of us to get off their a-- and do more than type on a keyboard.
You might want to consult with an attorney, and at least call the airport authority before you attempt to picket at the terminal.
I have yet to attempt to consult with an attorney as it would be specious to take up his time when I can't even get anyone to show up at the event. I also don't need to have the permission of the airport authorities to go there and leaflet.
Knowing what you are getting into in this situation is good advice.
I've got that covered. See below.

Read THIS case, PRUNEYARD SHOPPING CENTER v. ROBINS, 447 U.S. 74 (1980) which states unequivocally our right to leaflet on public or private property. It is a Free Political Speech issue and thus a Civil Right. Anyone who violates that right is imperiling themselves, their freedom, their job, their funds, and their property. It is a criminal and civil violation to prevent us from leafletting.
 
gunsmith

It looks like there will be three of us so far. How many people frequent these boards? EIGHT-THOUSAND EIGHT-HUNDRED THIRTY-FOUR scattered throughout the world according to the members list; and all I can roust is three of us.

That's pretty sad.
 
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I make copies of positive newspaper articles and leave them about in airports. Have been since 9-11-01. More armed pilots makes TSA much less necessary. That is the problem. TSA gets their power from our fear, just like OBL.
 
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