KodiakBeer
member
Duns, here's a new thread on something similar to your query: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=523258
Threshold for drawing a handgun
- Thread starter duns
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Deanimator
Member
My one and only reason to draw my firearm is to use it. If you cause me to draw my firearm, it's not guaranteed that I'll shoot you, but you'd better have fundamentally altered the situation by dropping whatever weapon you're threatening me with or fleeing.
Here in Ohio, if I'm outside of my home or not in my automobile, I must ATTEMPT to withdraw if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. That doesn't mean turning my back on you and running away. If I try to withdraw and you either attack me or thwart my withdrawal, you're going to have an exceedingly bad day.
If you attempt to invade my home or car, you've exed yourself out of the equation. I've got no duty to retreat and won't try to, although there's a fairly substantial chance of you getting run over and or dragged by my car if you try to carjack me.
A self-defense firearm is not to impress, frighten or threaten others. It's to defend your life and limb from an unlawful deadly force attack. If you push things to the point where I feel the need to draw, you've got an exceedingly small window of opportunity to not get shot by deescalating.
Here in Ohio, if I'm outside of my home or not in my automobile, I must ATTEMPT to withdraw if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. That doesn't mean turning my back on you and running away. If I try to withdraw and you either attack me or thwart my withdrawal, you're going to have an exceedingly bad day.
If you attempt to invade my home or car, you've exed yourself out of the equation. I've got no duty to retreat and won't try to, although there's a fairly substantial chance of you getting run over and or dragged by my car if you try to carjack me.
A self-defense firearm is not to impress, frighten or threaten others. It's to defend your life and limb from an unlawful deadly force attack. If you push things to the point where I feel the need to draw, you've got an exceedingly small window of opportunity to not get shot by deescalating.
Since your question is about Texas, in Houston we have had three recent card holders draw and fire their weapons in situations that they thought were self defense. I think you can see how these are going to turn out.
1. Card holder rear ends another car driven by a women and her young daughter. Card holder does not stop and leaves the scene. Women follows and tries to get a license plate number. Card holder feels threatened by being followed, he thinks women and young girl are after his fancy wheels and while moving in his car fires at the other moving car killing the young girl. He leaves the scene and does not call 911 to report the incident.
2. Man and his girl friend almost rear end a card holder's car at a stop sign. There was no contact. Card holder decides to follow the aggressive driver to his house where he pulls into the man's driveway right after the man pulls in. Man approaches car holder who is in his car and words are exchanged. Card holder shoots and kills man from inside his car and leaves the scene, but remembers to call 911 to report that a man tried to attack him.
3. A man attempts to hijack a Metro bus with passengers aboard, he begins beating the bus driver. Card holder is behind in a car. He sees what is happening and puts himself in harms way. He boards the bus and to stop the beating of the bus driver and attempts to pull the man off of the bus. The hijackers attention is drawn to the card holder and begins attacking the card holder, he draws his weapon and kills the hijacker. He tells the police officer at the scene that he felt that his life was in danger. The bus driver is hospitalized and the police officer describes to the news media that the card holder is a "hero".
All three shooters said that they felt their life was in danger.
1. Card holder rear ends another car driven by a women and her young daughter. Card holder does not stop and leaves the scene. Women follows and tries to get a license plate number. Card holder feels threatened by being followed, he thinks women and young girl are after his fancy wheels and while moving in his car fires at the other moving car killing the young girl. He leaves the scene and does not call 911 to report the incident.
2. Man and his girl friend almost rear end a card holder's car at a stop sign. There was no contact. Card holder decides to follow the aggressive driver to his house where he pulls into the man's driveway right after the man pulls in. Man approaches car holder who is in his car and words are exchanged. Card holder shoots and kills man from inside his car and leaves the scene, but remembers to call 911 to report that a man tried to attack him.
3. A man attempts to hijack a Metro bus with passengers aboard, he begins beating the bus driver. Card holder is behind in a car. He sees what is happening and puts himself in harms way. He boards the bus and to stop the beating of the bus driver and attempts to pull the man off of the bus. The hijackers attention is drawn to the card holder and begins attacking the card holder, he draws his weapon and kills the hijacker. He tells the police officer at the scene that he felt that his life was in danger. The bus driver is hospitalized and the police officer describes to the news media that the card holder is a "hero".
All three shooters said that they felt their life was in danger.
Rusty Shackleford
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Card holder 1&2 probably are going to prison, as well they should. #3... hopefully, he gets off. The bus driver was beaten badly enough to be hospitalized. Does Texas allow you to use lethal force to protect others against a forcible felony?
Crusader103
Member
Saying they thought they needed to defend themselves is not the same as being able to articulate a reasonable belief in the need to take lethal action. The first is a bold face lie in a futile attempt to cover ones behind in the aftermath of a criminal action and the second is a reasonable claim.
Philip, concerning #1 and #2 of your scenarios, a thread on THR cannot overcome stupidity. However, answers to the OP's legitimate questions would not fall into this category. You could be the best gun guru in all of gun guru land, but if you act stupidly (or criminally) you will pay.
I don't think anyone is advocating criminal behavior and then hiding behind the falsehood of an "I felt threatened claim." Legitimate claims of an apparent or perceived threat are what is being discussed. No doubt you must be ready and able to articulate why you truly felt threatened in a manner that sounds reasonable to others.
As for #3, good on the card holder. Not everyone would place themselves in jeopardy to defend the innocent life of another. Where it is lawful to do so, it is a personal choice of the CCW holder, but we need more people like that in this world.
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Deanimator
Member
Exactly. You must have a REASONABLE belief that your life and limb are in immediate danger. Recently, an Ohio cop CLAIMED (some people think he had a negligent discharge and wouldn't man up) that he was in fear of his life when he shot (in the back) and paralyzed a motorcyclist, but the dash cam showed that any fear he might have had was clearly NOT reasonable, the bizarre assertions of his expert witnesses notwithstanding. He was found guilty of felonious assault and faces up to eleven years in prison:
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=7433661
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100514/NEWS02/5140348
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
duns,
You might not like, "it depends", but as previously stated it always does.
It's incumbent upon you to determine what's happening and act appropriately. If you don't like that responsibility, then don't carry a gun. If you can't grasp what it means, then don't carry a gun until you can.
There are no checklists, and you can continue to "what-if" this to question death and never get an answer.
The best answer is you can get your gun out when it's necessary. And although necessity is subjective, it's boundaries are defined under the criteria that was in the Texas class you had to take.
What you're asking isn't a shooting problem, or even a gun problem. It's a social skills problem. Develop your social skills so you can communicate to someone you should be left alone. And that is a most personal skill. You can't use mine; I can't use someone else's. You have to develop it on your own.
You might not like, "it depends", but as previously stated it always does.
It's incumbent upon you to determine what's happening and act appropriately. If you don't like that responsibility, then don't carry a gun. If you can't grasp what it means, then don't carry a gun until you can.
There are no checklists, and you can continue to "what-if" this to question death and never get an answer.
The best answer is you can get your gun out when it's necessary. And although necessity is subjective, it's boundaries are defined under the criteria that was in the Texas class you had to take.
What you're asking isn't a shooting problem, or even a gun problem. It's a social skills problem. Develop your social skills so you can communicate to someone you should be left alone. And that is a most personal skill. You can't use mine; I can't use someone else's. You have to develop it on your own.
I disagree with the assertion that someone trying to "beat you up" is not threating you with leathal force.
recently there was a case here in New Orleans of a man, who started a fight in a bar with a fellow patron. A third, uninvolved man tried to step in to break up the fight, and was punched ONE time by the instigator. he fell back, hit his head, and died several days later. All from ONE punch.
So in my opinion, someone who "just" plans to hit you with fists is still presenting a very real danger.
recently there was a case here in New Orleans of a man, who started a fight in a bar with a fellow patron. A third, uninvolved man tried to step in to break up the fight, and was punched ONE time by the instigator. he fell back, hit his head, and died several days later. All from ONE punch.
So in my opinion, someone who "just" plans to hit you with fists is still presenting a very real danger.
mljdeckard
Member
It will still be dependent on the situation, and the perception of the person present at the time.
Many things MAY kill you. You have to decide which ones the D.A. will agree with you on.
Many things MAY kill you. You have to decide which ones the D.A. will agree with you on.
gearchecker
Member
My advice is simple but difficult to describe, so here goes for what it's worth. Last I heard about $.02.
Please read "In The Gravest Extreme" a couple times cover to cover. Then go to Pax's website http://www.corneredcat.com
If you can't figure it out, then reread it all over again.
The laws are mostly simple, to protect you and the BG both.
The gray areas are there so that a jury can decide how to color it in.
Good, bad, or indifferent, there's no absolute answer to your question on this forum, or in most courts of law. It's up to a grand jury or a jury to decide.
We hate to keep repeating the phrase "What would a reasonable person do in that situation? But it will be critical in your defense.
Unholstering a handguns, but not aiming it at a person in some jurisdictions is considered an action of defense. Others may consider it an act of a deadly threat.
Nobody can truly answer your question accurately because from one city, county or state the laws are continually changing, and the presumption of action is undefinable in most jurisdictions.
You must feel that your life, or another persons is in iminent danger of great physical harm or death.
Pulling out your firearm to simply warn somebody off with your handgun is usually (but not always) considered brandishing, and is a misdeamenor in most jurisdictions. In some, it's a felony and will cause permanent revocation of your license and capability to own or have possession of any other firearm.
If in doubt, don't pull it out!
IMO, De-escalate, retreat or escape should always be considered your first option (within your home or "castle" may have different standards, unless it's required by your state or local laws.) If you can't, then defend yourself with whatever means you have at your disposal.
Good luck trying to answer the question all of us has dealt within ourselves.
You must make the decision, we can't do it for you, and I pray I won't be with you if you ever need to decide. I'll be home safe with my family if all goes as planned.
Please read "In The Gravest Extreme" a couple times cover to cover. Then go to Pax's website http://www.corneredcat.com
If you can't figure it out, then reread it all over again.
The laws are mostly simple, to protect you and the BG both.
The gray areas are there so that a jury can decide how to color it in.
Good, bad, or indifferent, there's no absolute answer to your question on this forum, or in most courts of law. It's up to a grand jury or a jury to decide.
We hate to keep repeating the phrase "What would a reasonable person do in that situation? But it will be critical in your defense.
Unholstering a handguns, but not aiming it at a person in some jurisdictions is considered an action of defense. Others may consider it an act of a deadly threat.
Nobody can truly answer your question accurately because from one city, county or state the laws are continually changing, and the presumption of action is undefinable in most jurisdictions.
You must feel that your life, or another persons is in iminent danger of great physical harm or death.
Pulling out your firearm to simply warn somebody off with your handgun is usually (but not always) considered brandishing, and is a misdeamenor in most jurisdictions. In some, it's a felony and will cause permanent revocation of your license and capability to own or have possession of any other firearm.
If in doubt, don't pull it out!
IMO, De-escalate, retreat or escape should always be considered your first option (within your home or "castle" may have different standards, unless it's required by your state or local laws.) If you can't, then defend yourself with whatever means you have at your disposal.
Good luck trying to answer the question all of us has dealt within ourselves.
You must make the decision, we can't do it for you, and I pray I won't be with you if you ever need to decide. I'll be home safe with my family if all goes as planned.
hnl.flyboy
Member
it's been said before and i'll throw it out again. i'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. live to fight another day. i'd rather live through the first fight and have my weapons taken away from me, only to be killed by some other BG later than to worry too much and get killed by the BG in the first fight.
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