Took some new shooters to the range today ...

[Mulliga]

... and found out how indoctrinated a lot of people are by the media.

========================================

Bear with me...sort of a long story...

We went to the Lake City Range, and had a fun time. I showed them all my rifles (some .22s, an SKS, a WASR-10, and a Rem. 700). Eric and Emil were totally new shooters, but my friend Jeff had shot skeet before.

Anyway, after a good afternoon of shooting, we ride off. A conversation ensues...

========================================

EMIL: That was fun.
ME: Of course. Guns are fun.

EMIL: Are you an NRA member?
ME: Yes.

EMIL: NRA? Don't they want to stop the repass of the assault rifle ban?
ME: First of all, it's the assault weapons ban. Do you know what an assault weapon is?

EMIL: A machine gun, right?
ME: The ban affects SEMIautomatic guns, not fully automatic machine guns. Assault weapons are semiautomatic guns. Just like the WASR-10 you were shooting.
EMIL (snickering): So we were shooting illegal guns?
ME: They're not illegal. The magazines were made before the ban.
EMIL: But you have them now. (all but me laugh)

Later on...

ERIC: Other sports are dangerous. I think people should be allowed to shoot, as long as there's some regulation.
ME: (silence)

I need to take them again. Awful hard to undo years of brainwashing.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[BHPshooter]

Hmmm. That sucks. Most people seem to have an epiphany after a shooting trip. These guys must be thick... or HEAVILY indoctrinated.

What were your responses to thier continued arguments? I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on you, it's just that no well informed gun owner should lose an argument.

Do you plan to keep working on them?

Wes

 

[Trebor]

Keep working on them, but don't get "in their face" about it. You should be able to educate them on the issue through time as long as things don't get too confrontational. Of course, some people are just too dumb, but hopefully that's not the case here.

 

[Telperion]

Keep trying. Take them out again, keep your efforts low key, but try to show them how all-around useful a self-loading rifle is. By the way, when I talk to people about the AW ban, I generally run the following script:

Them: I support the assault weapons ban. I think it's a good idea.
Me: Can you define what an "assault weapon" is?
Them: A machinegun, right?
Me: Nope. Restricted by a law from 1934. The ban has nothing to do with machineguns. Keep trying, what's an "assault weapon"?
Them: I know, an AK-47!
Me: That's an example of one. I'm looking for a definition.
Them: random musings about hip firing, etc., but eventually: I guess I don't know then.
Me: So do you think it's a good idea to support a ban on some Thing when you cannot define what that Thing is?
Them: (silence)

At this point, they're usually curious enough that you can talk a bit about the inane legal definition, debunk all the propaganda, and still manage a joke about drive-by bayonettings.

 

[Mulliga]

it's just that no well informed gun owner should lose an argument

Well, this is the real world. It's very tiring to argue with your friends...they are your friends, after all.

Generally, they had a much more positive view on guns after the shoot, but there's still a lot of propaganda to flush out (fairly liberal college students, after all). Hell, Emil's Bulgarian, and I don't even know if they have guns over there.

They also called my scoped Rem. 700 a "sniper rifle."

 

[4v50 Gary]

Emil needs to attend a reeducation camp.

 

[GigaBuist]

It's everywhere.

I was chatting with a shooting instructor (well, assistant instructor) at lunch yesterday and we got to talking about a range he's checking out this Sunday. A bit of this that and the other thing and we got on the topic of pre-ban magazines because a guy with us was curious after one of us mentioned a 10-round limit. So, we explained the situation and the instructor fellow told the guy that they're legal to have and he's got 2 of them himself.

I chuckled... and said.. "Oh yeah, I've uhh... lets see, 5 for my AR, no wait 7 for my AR, 2 for a Glock, 3 for the CZ, 3 for the AK, uhh... 1 for the CETME.."

Instructor: "AK?"
Me: Yep.
Instructor: AK what?
Me: AK-47 clone... semiautomatic.
Instructor: I thought those were illegal?



The onlyl thing the guy knows about the AWB is that it banned magazines he'd like for his Glock 19. He's got NO idea that semi-automatic rifles are still legal or what an assault weapon is by the ban's definition.

Oh well, time to get packed up for a range trip. Taking a new shooter (female even) out today. Maybe two if I'm lucky.

 

[Waitone]

You'll be able to detect brainwashing by the limited number of formulaic comments. It takes time to undo the effects of mind control. I've found it best to use the gift that keeps on giving-----doubt. Introduce one element of doubt every time a discussion ensues.

Them--"I support the ban on assault weapons."
You--"What is an assault weapon?"

Them--"Too many people are killed with assault weapons."
You--"The DoJ's own study has show no effect on death rate by the AS ban."

Them--"Only the right people should have guns."
You--"Define right people."

Them--"Call the police if you are attacked."
You--"What is the average national reponse rate to 911 calls? Something like 20 minutes. How many times can you be shot, stabbed, strangled, gouged, clubbed, suffocated, etc. in 20 minutes"

And the list is endless. Doubt is constant and corrosive to a belief system. The more emotional the nature of the doubt the more effective in the short run.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Do you know what an assault weapon is?

In my experience, sheeple just hate it when we ask tough questions.

 

[BowStreetRunner]

nice try Mulliga, keep on them
BSR

 

[Marko Kloos]

"Assault weapons have only one purpose: to kill as many people as quickly as possible."

So why are they issued to police, and why is police exempt from the AWB?

"Only police should have semiautomatic rifles and hi-cap magazines."

If the AWB keeps them out of the hands of the criminals, why do police need them?

If the AWB does not keep them out of the hands of criminals, don't the good guys need them as well to even the odds?

 

[Skofnung]

I'm afraid that your Bulgarian friend may be a tough nut to crack. I have a friend from over there that I took shooting once. He had a great time, but afterwards, he fell back on his old "nobody needs guns" program. He also thinks that Socialism is a great idea.

You just have to keep plugging away.

 

[GigaBuist]

I -love- the "What is an assault weapon" question. Leads to a while night of fun and games with somebody that wants to play along.

I work with a fairly liberal minded guy that's not as pro-gun as I am. He's the "hunting purposes" type of guy but agrees that for ME to own them is OK, just not "anybody" out there. Oh well. So we got into a discussion one night over some beers with another non-gun buddy (actually my boss). it goes something like this:

Antis: "No, you just should not be able to own a military arm."
Me: It's not a military arm. You cannot find any arm that's armed their soldiers with a semi-auto only AK-47 or AR-15. Show me ONE.

Antis: But it's based off a mlitary design -- why do you want it:
Me: Because it's based off a military design. MIllions have been made and tested and then turned into semi-automatic form. They're reliable and inexpensive when you get right down to it.

Antis: Still, anything used in the military should not be available to civilians:
Me: That statement bans just about EVERYTHING out there. My bolt-action rifle made in 1946 is a true military design. The Remmington 870 shotgun, a staple across our country, has been deployed by the military from time to time and police departments.

Antis: Yeah, but an AK-47, that's pure military. It has no purpose other than killing a room full of people.
Me: What makes it better at that than another weapon?
... they usually can't answer that.

Another fun one is: Well, if you don't like military weapons in the hands of civilians then my AR-15 with a 30 round capacity in .223 is out of the question. What about the Mini-14 then, never adopted by any military? It's chambered for .223 and has a 30 round capacity. Functionally the same, but one's OK and one's not?

You can stonewall these people easily. They start to realize that they CANNOT argue facts with you. More and more people that know me are starting to see this. I have totally DIVED into the topic for just a couple of years now and they realize it's a fruitless effort usually. They start to see they don't have a logical leg to stand on and it's just emotional. They tend to cling to that emotional defense though. What's funny is they have NO qualms with me having them -- they just think that if I have them it's easier for a street thug to get them... which makes no sense. Argh.