Trigger Jobs on 1911

[mikemyers]

I've been reading in lots of places how shooters will improve the accuracy of target guns if they have the trigger pull reduced.

For someone who is already a good shooter, why would the groups tighten up simply by having to use less force to pull the trigger?

I read where people often "push" the gun to one side or another when they apply a lot of force to the trigger, but isn't this something that can be learned with practice?

I also read where too light a trigger pull is dangerous on guns used for anything other than target shooting, as it make it easier for the gun to fire unintentionally.


Back to trigger jobs - until recently I was under the impression that all that was being done is changing the tension of a spring. Then I started reading about some kind of adjustable "overtravel (???) stop". Not sure, nor do I have any idea what this means, or why it matters. Maybe I've got the name wrong here. Can anyone clear up what this is talking about?

As to who does the trigger job, I assume that this is something to be done by a qualified gunsmith? Can the parts simply be ordered from the gun manufacturer, and installed?

I guess I should ask this too - sometimes you see triggers that are solid, or have several openings machined through them, or other things that remove material. Is this just for "looks", or is there any purpose to it?

Oh yes, and as to material - is that something "standard", or are there different kinds of triggers that you get to choose from?

 

[jr_roosa]

Good questions:

For someone who is already a good shooter, why would the groups tighten up simply by having to use less force to pull the trigger?

Well, within a reasonable range, the actual pull weight probably doesn't matter much. If you have a really heavy trigger, then you will upset the aim of the gun when you actually pull hard enough to get the trigger to break. The main point of a trigger job isn't to lighten the trigger, but to make the break clean and consistent.

I also read where too light a trigger pull is dangerous on guns used for anything other than target shooting, as it make it easier for the gun to fire unintentionally.

Sort of. You have a bunch of automatic reflexes going on when you get scared and you hand turns into more of a paw. It becomes harder to separate your trigger finger from your other fingers, and you could pull on the trigger unintentionally. The bigger danger is for cops who draw their weapons and point them at people who they may not quite be ready to shoot. The even bigger danger is to have a shooting brought into question because the gun has a "hair trigger" and that the shooter may be making up what actually happened to coverup an unintentional discharge.

The other danger is that with a really light trigger job, if it's not done right and if there's a little wear you can have a full-auto pistol which will rise up with each shot until it's pointing at your face or behind you.

some kind of adjustable "overtravel (???) stop"

Sure. The trigger pull has a few different phases. First there's "take up" or "pretravel" this is the initial movement before the trigger stops moving and gets ready to break. Then the trigger breaks. Then after it breaks the trigger travels backwards until it stops completely, which is "overtravel." Afterwards you let the trigger out, and before it gets all the way back to where it started, the disconnector will re-engage and "reset."

An ideal trigger (there are a few different kinds of "ideal" triggers) would be one that has no takeup, has a perfectly crisp break "like a glass rod breaking," the break has the "perfect" weight, has no overtravel, and has a very short reset.

A trigger job basically makes the trigger on your gun as close to "ideal" as you are willing to afford. While the trigger job is being done, the trigger itself may be replaced with something lighter (a heavy steel 1911 trigger can break the sear itself with just the shock of the slide closing, causing the pistol to fire on chambering a round). The internal components may also be replaced. They will at least be polished and tuned to get the desired effect.

As to who does the trigger job, I assume that this is something to be done by a qualified gunsmith? Can the parts simply be ordered from the gun manufacturer, and installed?

Yes and yes. You need a really good gunsmith who will do it right with good parts. You can also buy "drop in" kits that will make the trigger in your gun better than it was, but won't address every issue corrected by a proper trigger job.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/dropins.shtml

I guess I should ask this too - sometimes you see triggers that are solid, or have several openings machined through them, or other things that remove material. Is this just for "looks", or is there any purpose to it?

This it to make the trigger itself light so it can't slam back hard against the sear and make the gun go off when the slide closes, see above. Usually aftermarket triggers are aluminum. You can get them in different colors if you want or have them cerakoted or anodized whatever color you want if you're into that.

So, why does a trigger job make a gun more accurate?

I don't really know, it just does. I had one done on my Garand and it halved group size for me and increased my scores at matches immensely. I have a gritty, creepy trigger on my Springfield 1911 and it gives me a terrible flinch. Within one magazine, I'm dropping every shot low and left. The triggers on my S&W .357 and High Standard .22 are glass-rod perfect and these are easy to shoot accurately. I can put 10 rounds into a ~4 inch 10 ring at 25 yards in timed and rapid fire at matches from time to time.

-J.

 

[Skylerbone]

That's alot of questions! First, the pull can be lightened by spring adjustment alone but that is not preferable. Second, the hammer, sear and disconnector can be adjusted (read geometrically changed) to improve both weight and feel.

Now back to the beginning. Accuracy takes concentration, muscle control and timing among other things. Clear your pistol and aim it at a target and hold that sight alignment. Even with solid fundamentals you will have some movement or wobble. The key is to trust it and know when to squeeze the trigger. Lightening makes it that much simpler, akin to shooting a stationary target rather than a moving one that involves lead (upland birds for example).

Back to the discussion of who should lighten a trigger on a 1911. A gunsmith. Unless you have a burning desire to know all there is to know and the time and money to invest, nothing else makes sense.

The overtravel screw you read about does not lighten the trigger. It limits overtravel, that is the distance the trigger travels after the sear has tripped. If adjusted incorrectly, you risk damage to the fire control parts. You also risk function as the screw can prevent the hammer from falling completely. Easy to adjust if you know how, google will save time as I'm already running long.

Skeletonized triggers have holes to lighten them, preventing bounce which causes double or burst firing. Most have a stainless bow and an aluminum or polymer shoe.

 

[jr_roosa]

Oh, and the trouble with good triggers is that once you have one gun with a really good trigger on it, you'll hate the triggers on all of your other guns.

Even for carry guns, you won't really want a super light trigger necessarily, but you'll want all the grit and slop and creep taken out of it or it just won't feel right.

I hope that helped.

-J.

 

[Robert101]

A smooth trigger pull is a must for accurate shooting both target and combat. Now I'm not saying it is the same application but each has it's place.

Funny thing. I bought a used gun with a horrible trigger - must have been 7.5 lbs. to pull in a handgun. That darn gun, as I left the trigger alone, took me some time to learn how to shoot but it gave me a better sense for hand and finger control in my finer pistols. So I guess I'm saying a bad trigger, also in a weird way, help me shoot better.

 

[rellascout]

A light trigger does not = a good trigger IMHO. A heavy trigger does not = a bad trigger. IMHO.

A good trigger is all about being clean and consistent. The best triggers I personally own are the following.

A Les Baer TRS 1911 which IIRC is about 4.5 lbs on the scale, avg of 5 pulls.

A Wild West Guns Custom Browning Hi Power with C&S fire control parts this one is at about 6.5 lbs, avg of 5 pulls.

A Stock Colt 70 series repo 1911 4.8 lbs avg of 5 pulls.

A Wild West guns Colt CCO 1911 custom with C&S fire control parts at 4.5 lbs, avg of 5 pulls.

See the trend... LOL The thing that makes all of these triggers better than others is that they are all clean and they are all consistent. The trigger breaks at the same point everytime.

This is how I would describe it. Click bang reset click bang click bang reset click bang... This allows me to focus on the front sight. As the pistol recoils and my front sight moves I am better able to track it when I know the trigger is going to break with consistency. If I have to think about the trigger this changes my ability to track the front sight and break the shot.

That is what a good trigger affords you IMHO. It is not about weight it is about consistency. At trigger can be heavy it can be light it can be long it can be short but most of all it has to be consistent. YMMV

 

[SSN Vet]

I find this graphic to be very helpful in understanding what goes into 1911 accurizing.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Up to a point, anything that reduces the force needed to pull the trigger is helpful to the accuracy of the shooter. The same applies somewhat to overtravel, i.e., further movement of the trigger to the rear after it has released the hammer. But what is the purpose of the gun? For strictly shooting at small bullseyes far away, that 2-3 lb. crisp trigger is fine. For a fighting handgun this is much too light, IMO. The overtravel stop screw on 1911s has been known to back out and prevent your trigger from resetting. You can recover from losing a match, but not a gunfight. If you must have one, get it adjusted and then fold, spindle, mutilate or whatever you have to do to keep it there.

 

[Ankeny]

For someone who is already a good shooter, why would the groups tighten up simply by having to use less force to pull the trigger?

Depends on the gun game involved, and in particular, the speed of the shots. The recoil characteristics of the gun also enter into the picture. My IPSC compensated Open gun has a 1.5 pound trigger and it is clean, crisp, and consistent. Try that with a 5 inch 1911 shooting ball ammo and see how long the trigger job lasts. My carry gun (Dan Wesson V-Bob) is just right at 3.5 pounds.

 

[mikemyers]

The question still remains - IF one is a good shooter, and IF in pulling the trigger he doesn't push the gun one way or another, just pulls the trigger straight back, why should this matter? Many of the "experts" who have written books about it write that the exact moment of the shot should surprise you, so you don't anticipate the shot and react in a way that moves the gun.

For someone just learning how to shoot better, it seems like it would be better for them to learn how to avoid moving the gun, by having a heavy trigger pull, so the shooter can learn to avoid it. You can't learn how to avoid something you're not aware of. On the other hand, once you've learned how to shoot well with a heavy trigger pull, you certainly won't shoot any worse if you start using a gun with a better trigger.

 

[jr_roosa]

The top shooters know exactly when the trigger will break, and they use that to make sure the trigger breaks over the ten ring as much as possible. The experts say that you should be surprised because when you are learning how to shoot you must not anticipate the shot. Once you get a lot better you need to know when the shot will break to get a winning score.

I think that there's something about having some signal to your body that the trigger is breaking that makes the flinch worse. That's why the gritty creepy triggers are hard to shoot well. There is certainly a small component of the force of the trigger pull upsetting the aim, so lighter is better than heavier, but consistent and crisp helps more at least for me. Could I shoot a 1 lb trigger more accurately than a 5 lb one? Sure, all else being equal. Do I want a 1lb trigger in my 1911? No way.

Now if you want to really blow your mind, google Brian Zins and roll triggers.

As for learning to shoot with a crappy trigger--it's already hard enough to learn to shoot well. Don't handicap yourself because you learn more bad habits that way. Become accurate with a good trigger and then you can embarrass your friends by outshooting them with their own guns with bad triggers. Ask me how I know!

 

[mikemyers]

You wrote:
"That's why the gritty creepy triggers are hard to shoot well"

Just trying to understand this..... I guess it makes sense. I think you're saying this is the real problem, not the amount of force it takes.



I've read in dozens of places where a trigger job on a gun that's carried around is not a good idea, as it can fire too easily. From what you've just written, would it be a good idea to get a trigger job even on a handgun you don't use for competition, without making the trigger pull too low?

(I guess I just don't know enough to be asking yet.... the only 1911's that I've shot are a relative's Dan Wesson and Wilson, another relative's Kimber, and my thirty year old Colt. As far as I know, I've never yet experienced a "gritty creepy" trigger, or if I have, I don't know enough yet to recognize it.)

 

[jr_roosa]

I've read in dozens of places where a trigger job on a gun that's carried around is not a good idea, as it can fire too easily. From what you've just written, would it be a good idea to get a trigger job even on a handgun you don't use for competition, without making the trigger pull too low?

Yes and yes. Most people are hung up on the pull itself, so when they say "trigger job" they mean "lighten the trigger pull." You can totally get a "defense" or "service" trigger job that will bring the pull to around 4.5-5lbs, and make everything nice and clean and smooth. If your pull is 7 or 8 lbs then they will lighten the pull as well, but again that's not the main point.

You need to find somebody who has a nice old school S&W revolver, a target .22 pistol, or a high-end 1911 to compare the trigger. Dry fire while trying to feel how much pressure you can pull without the trigger breaking up until it does break, and you'll notice all the components of the trigger pull described above and switch back and forth between that and your Colt. Now, you may already have a good trigger on your colt, in which case there may be no point in getting it redone. I think in another post we were talking about it taking a trip back to Colt anyway, and in that case, I'd just drop the $65 for them to re-work and tun the trigger while it's there.

Here are the different trigger jobs described by Clark:

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/1911serv.htm#trig

The lighter pull costs more because they put in a new hammer and sear that won't wear and will hold the lighter pull and you won't get hammer follow (google that).

Here's what Colt says:

http://www.coltsmfg.com/DesktopModu...ryId=126&PortalId=0&DownloadMethod=attachment

They will do a lighter pull, but they say you shouldn't order that for a carry gun. Some people do, and that's fine, but it's sort of an advanced technique. The price is the same for both, suggesting that they feel their hammers and sears will hold a lighter pull well.

C&S makes "drop in" kits and they also have a "professional" and "Duty/Carry" set with higher pulls.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5502/ttver=1/Product/1911_AUTO_TRIGGER_PULL_KITS

So, really it's a matter of personal preference, but until you really know what you like, a light trigger in a carry gun isn't something to get.

Also, be careful of local smiths. I have a 1911 from 1913 that had a horrendously heavy trigger. My brother took it to a local "1911" smith somewhere in Michigan, he messed with it, and later on when I talked him into a trade, the hammer would follow and it had a very light pull. I took it to a smith I trust and he got it back around 5 lbs where it belongs as a collector/occasional shooter, and now it has no hammer follow.

-J

 

[Skylerbone]

Mike there's nothing wrong with a good trigger job, to include lightening pull weight, on a carry pistol. What must be realized first are shooter ability and objective.

For me 4 lbs. is great for a walkin around 1911 that also sees lots of range time. When JR. mentions those other aspects, grit free, creep free, crisp, that is what a gunsmith delivers. Any fool on YouthTube can show you how to bend a sear spring and lead you into harms way. Let's review those terms to be clear.

Pretravel: the small amount of take up or slack before encountering resistance.
Creep: the amount of travel after resistance is felt before the sear trips.
Overtravel: the amount of travel after the sear trips.
Grit: the lack of smoothness felt during pull, similar to the sensation of sanding.
Crisp: describes a quick, sharp release, think falling off a cliff vs. rolling down a hill.

As far as good triggers making good shooters better, ask yourself how many races Jimmy Johnson would win if he drove a Ford Pinto on the track. Even if it had a racing engine, it would not have the maneuverability of the other cars.

 

[rcmodel]

why should this matter?

Consider if you will a two pound gun with a six pound trigger pull.

You have to exert three times the weight of the gun to get it to fire.
When it does fire, that six pound pull is suddenly transmitted to the trigger stop or over-travel adjustment of the two pound gun.

It takes a real master to not let that move the gun before the bullet clears the muzzle.

rc

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; every time I ask something here, not only is it answered, but I end up knowing a lot more than before. (Thank you Skylerbone for the definitions of those terms.)

Regarding the racing analogy, it reminds me of back in the late 1960's, when I was riding a 305cc Honda, trying to follow a friend on a Honda 50 to his home. He competed in the high-end motorcycle racing over in Europe, and I could barely stay with him, something he thought was hilarious! Of course, he also knew where he was going, but there was NO way I could ride even 5% as well as he did..............


Question for 'rcmodel'. I find it difficult to believe that what you say is correct. I'm pulling the trigger with four pounds of force (on this two pound gun) and it fires. As I imagine things to be, long before my finger pressure will cause the gun to do anything, the bullet will be well on its way to the target, and the gun will react with FAR more than my four pounds of pressure.

My four pounds of pressure on the trigger isn't really moving the gun anywhere - the palm of my hand will be pushing forward just as hard as my finger is pulling backward, and the gun's not going to move anywhere, unless my trigger finger is also pushing or pulling the gun sideways. At least that's the way it seems to me.

As I see it, your last sentence is spot on, but it would apply more so to moving the gun to the right or left, because of moving the finger incorrectly. I think......

 

[Skylerbone]

No, he's spot on. The why is because while your arms will be asked to flex (for most stances) and absorb recoil the most precise means of depressing the trigger involves forcing that finger to act all on its own and in a straight back motion. Your strong hand grasps the pistol with moderate pressure and your support hand holds it with just a bit more force.

 

[jr_roosa]

OK, so say the .45 round is leaving the barrel at 800fps starting from nothing. Average speed going down the barrel is 400fps. The barrel is 1/2 a foot long, so it takes 1/800th of a second to get out. Add in lock time (the time from the sear breaking and the hammer hitting the firing pin), the time for the primer to light the powder, and let's say we're in the ballpark of 1/100th of a second, just to make the math easier.

If you flinch at 10 inches/sec (a pretty good guess if you ever see somebody with a good flinch and a misfire/empty chamber), then the muzzle will have dropped 1/10th of an inch in the time from the sear breaking until the bullet leaves the barrel.

1/10th of an inch from a 5 inch barrel means 1 inch off at 50 inches, 10 inches off at 500 inches (40 feet), and 20 inches off at around 25 yards.

This is all ballpark and estimation, but you can see where I got the idea from the other post that the looseness of fit between your barrel and barrel bushing might be causing less problem with your accuracy than your own flinch worsened by a heavy, creepy, or gritty trigger.

I think the numbers are pretty close. I have a 1911 that for some reason really makes me flinch badly. After a few mags, I can even drop rounds off the bottom left of a 25yd timed/rapid fire target. These targets around 2 feet to a side, so I'm jerking it about 18 inches off center, and I know that I can hold a 3" group at 25 yards.

Also, the recoil of the gun DOES move the gun before the bullet leaves the barrel. It just does it pretty consistently shot after shot, so you never notice it. When you reload, slower loads hit higher than faster ones because the gun moves up more before the slow bullet can leave the barrel. Because of that, your grip strength can effect impact because of how the gun recoils. Certainly, if you are pulling back on the trigger with 6 pounds of force, and the sear breaks, the barrel will dip down while your finger and trigger travel back until the trigger stops and the barrel will be then be pushed up.

Short answer is that lots of things are moving around when you shoot a handgun, and to shot accurately you need to minimize the movement, or at least make the movements consistent.

 

[rcmodel]

I find it difficult to believe that what you say is correct.

Trust me, it is correct.

I spent a few years shooting National Match Pistols for Unkle Sams army, as well as building them, and tuning triggers on them.

If it made no differance in scores, we wouldn't have bothered.
But it most certainly did make a big differance in scores to the top level shooters on the team.

BTW: If you look at the chart SSN Vet linked in post #7, you will see that a good trigger makes more differance percentage wise in accuracy then anything else you can do to a match gun.

rc

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Question for 'rcmodel'. I find it difficult to believe that what you say is correct. I'm pulling the trigger with four pounds of force (on this two pound gun) and it fires. As I imagine things to be, long before my finger pressure will cause the gun to do anything, the bullet will be well on its way to the target, and the gun will react with FAR more than my four pounds of pressure.

The movement of the gun happens before or while the hammer falls. After it falls all the way and fires the cartridge, the bullet goes in whichever direction you pushed the gun.

Rellascout brought up a good point about trigger smoothness and consistency, too.

 

[mikemyers]

I'm going to go through the math, and see how this works out. The scenario is as follows:

Assume a two pound gun with a six pound trigger pull. You exert three times the weight of the gun to get it to fire.

• When the gun fires, that six pound pull is suddenly transmitted to the trigger stop or over-travel adjustment of the two pound gun.
  
• The .45 round leaves the barrel at 800fps starting from nothing. Average speed going down the barrel is 400fps. The barrel is 1/2 a foot long, so it takes 1/800th of a second to get out. Add in lock time (the time from the sear breaking and the hammer hitting the firing pin), the time for the primer to light the powder, and let's say we're in the ballpark of 1/100th of a second, just to make the math easier.

At this point, there is no "flinching" If we add in flinching, the bullet can go anywhere at all depending on how much the shooter flinches. We're only talking about trigger pull, and its effect on accuracy.

As long as the shooter is pulling straight back on the trigger (and doesn't flinch, or make any of the other mistakes shooters sometimes do), as I see it, mathematically, the main reasons the bullet might not go where it's aimed are:

a) the gun starts to raise up because of the recoil (should be consistent from shot to shot)
b) the weight or speed of the bullets is changed,
c) tolerances in the gun itself
d) sight alignment errors

What the shooter does right or wrong is in addition to the above. Mathematically, I just don't see where a shooter pulling with 8 pounds of force on the trigger will cause the bullet to land any differently than with 4 pounds of pull. (Obviously it makes a big difference to the shooter, as the lighter trigger seems to allow them to control the gun more precisely.)

I doubt it has much influence here, but the bullet starts out at "rest", and over the length of the barrel the rifling causes the bullet to start rotating. Presumably that results in a force to the handgun trying to rotate it the other way?


I don't disagree with what you guys said up above, but I think this specific discussion is more so how shooters deal with the force on the trigger, rather than the overall results including the shooter's actions. Flinching is a whole new ball game. Does that make sense?

 

[Skylerbone]

Simple analogy, helium balloon tied to string in one hand and scissors in the other, cut string. Full size hot air balloon, rope dangling down, grasp rope as it lifts off, rope cut.

While the balloon scenario provides no discernable shift to your hand you can imagine the result with the "heavier" hot air balloon (yes it's lighter). Extremes to be sure but I think they'll illustrate the case that exerting force results in a reaction when that force is no longer needed, in our case to trip the sear. The resistance is there one moment and fully removed the next. This is also where having a minimal amount of overtravel (a tiny bit is necessary for safety) also benefits you.

 

[jr_roosa]

OK, say you have a terribly heavy trigger. Your finger is pulling 8lbs against it. Newton says the gun (and the back of your hand) is pushing back 8lbs against your finger. As soon as the sear breaks, you have 8 lbs suddenly pushing forward and rotating downward with no opposing force and that movement keeps going, maybe during the entire lock time.

To make matters worse, you have a very low mass trigger and a slightly higher mass finger that were just pushing back with 8lbs of force. They begin accelerating backwards for as long as there is overtravel. At some point they slam into the magazine catch, bouncing the gun back and up. If there is long overtravel, the finger/trigger momentum will be greater. Newton also says that the momentum of the gun should be the same as that of the trigger and the finger, but both objects are sort of attached to each other, and sort of rolling around in 3 dimensions, so who knows what really happens. At some point during this trick, the gun starts recoiling back and up (and yes, rotating the opposite direction of the bullet engaging the rifling). So, inconsistency matters, but who knows how much and to whom. To Joe Blow with his 50 rounds every 3 months shooting soda cans, it matters not a hell of a lot. To the guy trying to win at Camp Perry, it matters maybe a whole lot more.

The heavier the trigger, the greater the effect. If the pull is the same every time, and if the shooter pulls the same every time, then you'll still have consistency in outcome. However, if sometimes the break is at 6lbs and sometimes at 8lbs, then the consistency goes away.

Really though, once we start talking about all of the forces acting on the gun during trigger pull and follow-through, we've strayed quite far from the original problem..."how does a trigger job make a gun more accurate?"

All of these minutiae help the High Master shooters keep winning matches with their 4 figure pistols (and 4 figure backup pistols in the box just in case something breaks).

A clean, consistent, crisp, moderate (4.5lb?), short overtravel trigger pull will help YOU become a more accurate shooter, because it helps YOU:

1. Actually do the same thing every time you pull the trigger (same grip, same pull, same follow-through, same position of the finger on the trigger, same sight alignment, same head position, same stance, etc. etc.).
2. Notice when you vary from #1

A bad trigger is a distraction from noticing all the bad stuff you're doing that makes your bullets go someplace other than where you wanted them to go.

Now, once the equipment is working correctly (you have the trigger you like and the barrel isn't rattling around in the bushing), you can actually start worrying about shooting fundamentals: proper trigger pull and sight alignment.

So, going back to the original problem...that you have a Colt that needs some work...get the work done at the custom shop, get a reloading setup so you can shoot the volume you need to get your skills up, and practice, practice, practice. Lots of dry-fire. Lots of dry fire against a blank wall watching your sight alignment. Lots of shooting blank targets working on your sight alignment and consistent trigger pull. Lots of shooting real targets. Lots more dry fire.

Good luck!

-J.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; as a practical answer, that makes a lot of sense. Consistency. That alone is a good reason for getting the trigger job. (The gunsmith at Florida Gun who checked out my Colt a few days ago is going to shoot it early next week, with the new bushing installed. He will then tell me what, if anything, he feels should be done, and in what order.) .....and I've now got all the reloading gear - need to get it set up and start using it. I used to know how, but that was a lifetime ago....