US mil 9mm Nato adoption contraversy

[otomik]

i heard that smith and wesson made an aluminum frame 9mm in hopes of winning a military contract in the fifties when the us military was first thinking of switching (they didn't because all the 1911s were relatively new).

got me thinking, has there ever been a case of a NATO country adopting a major new weapon not in a NATO caliber? be it the former standard of 7.62x51mm, 5.56x45mm or 9x19mm? the only case i can think of would be the USA with the M-16 and 5.56mm. maybe there's more obscure examples in the realm of tank munitions or artillery.

Does STANAG always win out? what are the reprocussions of willfully not following STANAG? did the europeans get in a big huff about our 5.56mm rifle at the time of it's adoption?

 

[Iain]

Yeah, the British military were in a bit of a huff about the 5.56.

After the Second World War, both the USA and the UK gave much thought to the introduction of new small arms cartridges. The British developed a 7mm round....

Keep reading from there on here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/256brit.htm

The owner of that website posts here, name is Tony Williams.

 

[George S.]

Is there ary NATO standard in tank or artillery ammunition? Seem like there is everything from 105mm upwards of 120mm in either smooth-bore or rifled barrels. And there doesn't appear to be any standard in guns on the infantry fighting vehicles like the Bradley or Stryker and their European counterparts.

There is a tremendous amount of money involved when a county's military has to change their basic weapons to another caliber. Not all countries can afford to do a major change as was done with the M9 pistol and 9mm rounds.

We may see andother big expense again in the US military if the new HK infantry weapons will be issued in a new caliber. If the new caliber is adopted, what will NATO do? Don't think all of the countries will run out and re-chamber their rifles to somethng different (unless the US pays for it)

 

[Jim K]

In theory, the STANAG wins out, but STANAG's often are as solid as Swiss cheese (oops, Switzerland is not in NATO, so maybe I should use another comparison, but you get my point.)

They are hammered out by committees, and exceptions and variations abound. As a pertinent example, the agreement on 9x19 pistol ammo included an exception for the U.S. .45, but said that if/when the U.S. ever went to a new pistol, it would be in 9mm.

Jim

 

[MrMurphy]

If we replace the Beretta what do you want to bet it's in .40? NATO has no real purpose since Russia became just Russia again (not Russia With Friends Along) and considering how several major members have been messing with us lately, though all the new members are on our side (all the former Warsaw Pact people)...... we can switch calibers and blow them off. Not like they'll particularly mind.

 

[Norm357]

otomik said:
i heard that smith and wesson made an aluminum frame 9mm in hopes of winning a military contract in the fifties when the us military was first thinking of switching



Useless bar trivia. NASA bought 5 of those and issued them to the first astronauts. They were worried about the Russians getting to the astronauts first. They were carried in a holster velcroed under the arm.

 

[otomik]

If we replace the Beretta what do you want to bet it's in .40? NATO has no real purpose ... and considering how several major members have been messing with us lately... we can switch calibers and blow them off...

.40? really? i'd like to see it but i kind of doubt it.
1. doesn't make a very good subgun round like the 9mm, though subguns are getting less important.
2. i think the .40 gets a lot of it's power because it's more suited to hollowpoints than 9mm and .45 so i don't think you'll see much of a stopping power increase. .40 and .45 are really close in stopping power when you're talking standard pressure hollowpoints but when you're talking FMJ it doesn't seem too worth it.
3. people are really toying with the idea of subcaliber rounds like the 5.7x28mm, though for practical reasons it will come from a necked down 9mm cartridge (see also china's 5.8mm pistol). i'd expect to see something like 5.56x22mm or 6.8x21mm Beretta in a M9A1, they would make good Subgun and PDW rounds too (though even better if they were based on the .40 case necked down). these rounds will be more important if we switch to a more high-powered rifle round (the XM-8 PDW in .223 is already a little impraticle, a 6.8mm version would tip it over the edge).

it doesn't look like our western european alliances are important but i think we'll still need alliances, maybe something to replace SEATO but centered on checking china's growing power, India's PM has been meeting with a few other asian leaders on creating something like this.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Close, but no ceegar!

The US Army Ground Forces staff started looking into replacing the 1911 and 45 ACP immediately after WWII in 1946. In 1947 the Ordnance Technical Committe desired a handgun of no more than 25 oz, no longer than 7 inches, double action, and in 9x19. All before NATO existed.

The first considered were chopped 1911A1s in 9x19, Colt T4 in 9x19, HighStandard T3 in 9x19, and some lightweight Inglis High Powers in 9x19.

Work towards a short, alloy frame 1911 began in 1947 from the above. S&W started work on their 9x19 handgun in 1946. The first prototype of the model 39 (X-46) was delivered in 1948, again before NATO.

NATO was used to justify the push for a 9x19 pistol that had already started. Took 'em some time, about 40 years, to finally get it.

 

[Jim K]

Otomik wrote:

"I heard that Smith and Wesson made an aluminum frame 9mm in hopes of winning a military contract in the fifties when the us military was first thinking of switching (they didn't because all the 1911s were relatively new)."

The .45's were not all "relatively new", but there were enough of them for the immediate future, even though military production ceased in 1945. The U.S. secured an exemption from the NATO standardization agreement on pistol/SMG ammo for that reason, agreeing to change to 9mm if/when they adopted a new pistol.

The S&W proposal became the Model 39, the ancestor of all center fire S&W autos since, except the 1911. The Colt entry became the Commander, but an entry by High Standard went nowhere. At that time, Ruger was not a player.

Jim