US to start taking photos and prints

[Kobun]

I read in a paper that the US gov is going to take photos and finger prints of all people coming into the country.

Well, I guess they will then automatically run a background check.

Maybe they could tie this up to the ATF and FBI database so that those that are let into the US can buy NFA items.
They should give something back to the millions of tourists that come and spend billions of dollars each year.

On a more serious side:
I wonder how this will affect those that want to bring guns into the US for hunting and competition...

 

[Jeff White]

More useless eyewash. In September 2002 my friend from the UK came to visit. He had to fill out a questionaire about possible affiliations with the WWII German Nazi party and had to swear he had never been in the SS or worked as a concentration camp guard in Nazi Germany between 1939 and 1945. My friend was born in 1973.

Instead of photos or fingerprints I'd rather see the length of authorized stay entered into NCIC. Then if the had any contact with the police and had over stayed their visas the officer could arrest them on the spot. I seem to recall a couple of the September 11th hijackers were stopped for traffic violations before the big day. Imagine what would have happened had the local LEOs known they had overstayed their visas and been able to arrest them for the INS on the spot.

Jeff

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Any system to deal with people who are in this country illegally will only be as good as its ability to identify the culprits. This system is only a first step. The BICE needs to follow it up by using the information that this system yeilds to obtain and enter warrants based upon illegally being in the country. Why not avoid entering the innocent traveller into NCIC. After all, its the same logic that we apply to arguing against general registration of firearms and owners...

 

[Jeff White]

I don't see what 's wrong about a field for an alert on an alien's legal length of stay. The same system could also generate an arrest warrant the day after the visa expired.

Photos and fingerprints don't mean anything. We supposedly recognize passports as proof of identity. I don't see any reason to stop doing that. The photo/fingerprint thing without a means to track the aliens is pretty much useless. It could also cause problems for Americans who travel abroad. How will other countries feel about our not recognizing their passports as ID?

A better system would be a compter terminal at point of entry and exit. We can check everyone attempting to legally enter the country through whatever database we want and enter them into NCIC as legal aliens. Enter the length of authorized stay and any LEO who contacts an alien who has overstayed his/her visa will know and be able to immediatly take them into custody. If we just photgraph and fingerprint them, all we have done is created a database to compare them to if they attempt to hide their identity after they have already been in trouble.

Of course we'd have to change immigration policy to actually protect our borders. Neither party wants to do that so they'll tell us all about photographing and fingerprinting aliens but not how it will change anything. Once again, like TSA it's all eyewash to make the sheeple feel secure and won't have any effect on actual security.

Jeff

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Can we afford to continue to accept passports as primary identification? Passports can be obtained from nations that support terrorism, like Syria or Iran. Passports can be obtained from nations that can't control their own intellegence services or borders, like Pakistan. Passports may be issued by nations where religious extremists and their sympathizers have millions to subvert the system, like Saudi Arabia. The Middle East aside, for every example I have given, there are probably two more elsewhere based upon mere corruption...
Biometrics for identification are coming, and since 9-11, its not a question of if, so much as when and how much...

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

While I'm all for securing our borders, allowing the creation of "automatic" arrest warrants in NCIC seems to me to be a somewhat dangerous precedent.

If we can afford the whole Homeland Security gig, then we can afford to have a system that spits out a list of overstays, and a few people to catch mistakes and process accurate warrants. Checks and balances have their place, even in a time of war.

 

[Jeff White]

What kinds of problems for Americans travelling abroad will we create if we stop accepting passports for identification? Can you tell me what we'll gain by just photgraphing and fingerprinting legal aliens?

Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

I don't see what's so precedent setting about automated warrants. All the computer would do was generate a list. A judge or magistrate would still have to sign them. If we removed them from the database when they processed through immigration to depart or when they went to immigration to get their visa extended we could change the date. If an LEO encountered an alien who's visa showed expired but had no warrant could detain that person until they found out what was up.

I don't see the problem with tracking aliens within our borders. I don't see any constitutional issues with it either. the problem is, we don't do anything to track aliens and I think by law we're supposed to. The technology exists to make it easier, yet we don't....Why??

Jeff

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Can you tell me what we'll gain by just photgraphing and fingerprinting legal aliens?

Certainly, we will gain a greater ability to stop terrorists from entering the country using false passports obtained through the countries I listed above. Terrorists among the combatants who we may have contacted and fingerprinted in Afghanistan or Iraq. We won't keep even the ones we have in Guantanamo forever, and if you think elements in the government of Syria wouldn't give one of them a false passport if they thought they could get away with it, I have a bridge to sell you.

Besides which, if more secure identification than passports is going to cause problems with other governments, what is detaining their innocent nationals because somebody messed up a NCIC entry going to do? If your going to pull a list, and have it reveiwed and approved by a magistrate, then what your suggesting isn't any more efficient than what BICE is trying to do now, they are just trying to start out with a secure identification system.

 

[Jeff White]

Certainly, we will gain a greater ability to stop terrorists from entering the country using false passports obtained through the countries I listed above. Terrorists among the combatants who we may have contacted and fingerprinted in Afghanistan or Iraq. We won't keep even the ones we have in Guantanamo forever, and if you think elements in the government of Syria wouldn't give one of them a false passport if they thought they could get away with it, I have a bridge to sell you.

So how long is it going to take someone to get a visa to enter the US? Are you saying an AFIS search on all visa applicants is what's planned?

Besides which, if more secure identification than passports is going to cause problems with other governments, what is detaining their innocent nationals because somebody messed up a NCIC entry going to do?

How many messed up NCIC entrys do you think we'll have? Are you suggesting that those people issuing visas aren't capable of doing the data entry without messing it up. And what's wrong with detaining an alien who's visa shows expired in NCIC until the truth can be discovered. I am an American citizen, I expect to travel freely within the US. I don't expect to travel freely in other countries. When I am abroad I expect that I'll have to live with the laws of the country I'm in. Visitors to the US should expect no different. Overstay your visa, expect to be arrested and deported...It's that simple. We currently enter officer safety alerts into NCIC. The alert that the subject is an alien and his/her visa expires on such and such a date is no different then a gang affiliation safety alert. It's not info that an officer can act on by itself, but it's good to know.

With an automated system of who is in the country and when their visa expires, there is no reason why warrants for those overstaying their visas couldn't be issued withing 48 hours.

I can't understand why so many people are against enforcing the immigration laws. A country that refuses to defend it's borders is doomed.

Jeff

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

So how long is it going to take someone to get a visa to enter the US? Are you saying an AFIS search on all visa applicants is what's planned?

Yes, and the technology to do just that in minutes is coming.

How many messed up NCIC entrys do you think we'll have?

In spite of the quality of the current system, I see entry errors on a regular basis. Keeping in mind that I see problems based on mistakes while working out here in rural Colorado, I believe that we need more quality control in NCIC, not less. If I see occasional mistakes here, I think its safe to assume that they see far more elsewhere.

With an automated system of who is in the country and when their visa expires, there is no reason why warrants for those overstaying their visas couldn't be issued withing 48 hours.

There is no reason that the system BICE is trying to implement shouldn't be able to manage it in 24 hours, without detaining the innocent for no reason.

I can't understand why so many people are against enforcing the immigration laws. A country that refuses to defend it's borders is doomed.

I am certainly for enforcing immigration laws, I also think its worthwhile to try and achieve it without detaining the innocent.

 

[hops]

You'd be shocked to know how 'difficult' it is for single women to make it in to the US as tourists. According to the US govt. they all want to marry Americans. That's the only reason they come here.

About 13 years ago, at SFO, I, the legal resident alien, had a small problem with my green card. NO big deal, INS was going to let me in, but did confiscate my passport (there is a diplomatic protest) to ensure my arrival at INS to clear up the issue.

Well, as I'm waiting at SFO (45 mins) to go in to the promised land, where all my wordly possessions are, a poor lady (I guess she was about 25) was getting the 3rd and 1000th degree from INS. They would not let her in. Her paperwork seems to be in order. They told her to her face, that they belived her sole purpose of entry in to the US was to marry an American citizen. She was from Nicaragua. There were people waiting for her on the other side of the gates to the promised land. I wonder to this day if INS ever let her in.

I've been fingerprinted, photographed, probably under survailence by the Feds. Filling out a 4473 form or a form 4 for NFA toys is the least of my worries. Gov.org already knows more about me than I know about myself.

It's all you 'natural' born Americans I pity. Welcome to my world..... That 'ausweis' or national ID papers for US citizens is right around the corner. All those bad 'NAZI ' Your papers please' jokes I've had to endure over the years will be here soon.

 

[PrudentGT]

Okay, I didn't read the whole thread, so I apoligize if this was already pointed out, but let me get this straight: Somebody who's changed their identity and lived in hiding for half a century because they were a prison guard in Nazi Germany is going to fly into the US and answer 'yes' to the questionaire Jeff White mentioned? Get real.

I used to really piss the gate agents at the airport off back when they asked that silly 'has this bag been under your control at all times' question. I'd say 'No, it was out of my sight when it went through the metal detector...'

 

[Gordon Fink]

I don’t see the problem with tracking aliens within our borders. I don’t see any constitutional issues with it either.

Please see Article IV in amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

~G. Fink

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Actually, it'll be a fingerprint confirmation within 40 seconds. Very nice technology. I could tell you more but I'd have to kill you. I'm the senior systems administrator for the system and it will go live shortly.


(Edited later to add...I really like this system, but I wish we had a big effing wall to go with it with only a few gates in it.


Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

All of this is based on the assumption that terrorists are incapable of adapting. Yes, having fingerprints, photos, tying the visa expiration date with the driver's license computer, etc. may of had some impact on the 9/11 terrorists when they came in contact with LEOs. But now that the entire world knows of these problems and methods to correct them, a terrorist will just enter the country differently.

They can acquire false papers and enter the country across any of the thousands of miles of unguarded borders or by boat along the coast.

This may have an effect on identifying common aliens staying after their visa expires provided they come in contact with the police, but I don't see it having any impact on terrorism. With the minimal impact on identifying illegals (and even when they are located, they aren't deported), this just seems a waste of resources.