VihtaVuori loading data : +P or not +P ?

[chriske]

I realize V-V powders are not the most frequently used in the US, but they are very good and -best of all- readily available over here
The .38 Special loading data on their site don't mention if the loads generate regular or +P pressure.
Does anyone know of another source for loading data in .38 Special with V-V powder, so I could cross-reference ?

 

[Walkalong]

I have a Vihtavuori handbook from 95 I can check when I get home. I think it shows regular & +P load data.

 

[rcmodel]

O.K.
Dumb question time!

Does Europes CIP even use the American SAAMI +P pressure specs on ammo not bound for U.S. markets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...nte_pour_l'Epreuve_des_Armes_à_Feu_Portatives

rc

 

[chriske]

Not dumb at all, rcmodel :
The VihtaVuori site mentions "...The listed maximum loads have been dertermined according to the respective CIP / SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower."
Therefore, I think I can assume none of their loads listed under ".38 Special" is +P.
But I'd rather be double sure.

 

[Walkalong]

Left straight out of town after work to play a ball game last night, and forgot to check. I will check tonight for sure. AC

 

[Chester32141]

I've been using 4.7 gr of VVn340 under 125gr lead round nose for my .38 special loads. I'm getting some unburned bowder in the form of yellow granules ... these are being used in a 2" barrel .... should I bump up the load to get a cleaner burn ?

Chester

OP ... I have a limited reference to V-V loads if you could tell us what bullet type and weight you're using along w/ the type of V-V powder ... it only mentions max loads, it does not mention +P ...

 

[jfh]

The following is speculation--but:

VihtaVuori appears to publish data to the standards for both SAAMI and for CIP. Thus, if you can find a Finnish-language V. manual, it will have the CIP specifications--I think.

Here's the background to this assumption: Last year, through the network of reloaders who worked on 38 Special "replica reloads" (and some other fabled loads, like the 38 Special SR-4756 Speer recipes from the 70s), one of us located a PDF of the Finnish language reloading manual. That 2002 manual shows the (nominal) 5% boost in charges that make a round CIP pressure.

For example, for Chester32141's query (see below) the 2006 English-language manual shows a max charge of 6.3 gr; the 2002 Finnish-language manual shows a max charge of 6.6 gr. This shows that the CIP-pressures are about 5% above the 38+P spec--which is the 'rule of thumb' given me by the Ramshot ballistician.

rcmodel asks a very pertinent question. My guess is that 'European'-market ammo is loaded to CIP specs--but it's a guess, and probably a marketing decision, not a policy. Another version of this question goes something like this--do US firearms manufacturers (i.e., S&W) make 38 Special revolvers to 38+P specs, or to CIP specs? My guess is that they do not tweak the European-bound firearms; they are all the same. IIRC, the CIP spec for 38 Special (appr. 21,750 PSI) was set about 1988, so all modern 38 Special firearms should handle CIP-spec ammo just fine.

ChrisK--see if you can locate a Finnish language manual, then you can compare them. You (or others) can also e-mail me for a copy of the 2002 manual. This manual does also list charge weights in grains--but other data is in metrics. And, if you can find a 'current' Finnish-language manual--particularly a pdf--give us a link to it.

Chester32141 A Finnish-language 2002 Viht manual I have shows a 125-gr. Lead bullet (Ranier FP) charge range of 5.7 to 6.6 gr. for N340. It's safe to say that you can bump up the load, IMO--are you getting stuck bullets by any chance?

As a segue--I see that the test barrel for those 2002 Finnish 38 Special recipes was 7+ inches. This might account for some of those optimistic velocities we users can never obtain.

Jim H.

 

[ants]

Chester, N340 is on the slow side, and you're shooting a low pressure round from a snub barrel. You're likely to get unburnt powder no matter what you do. Nevertheless, your load might be rather light according to the current VV manual (it shows 5.7 to 6.4 grains for a lead 124g semiwadcutter bullet). You can go online to find their current data.


My old VV manuals don't go as far back as Anthony's '95, but they are all titled "International Reload Guide" and have the same statement quoted by rc model: CIP or SAAMI whichever is lower.

Interesting info from jfh. Thanks.

Ants

 

[Walkalong]

Chester, N340 is on the slow side, and you're shooting a low pressure round from a snub barrel. You're likely to get unburnt powder no matter what you do.

Agreed. N320 is much better suited to .38 Spl

 

[Chester32141]

Thanks for the input guys ...

Chester

 

[Walkalong]

Viht load data

They did not show separate +P loads like I thought. 0 for 2 on memory yesterday.

you may have to "show full size" etc to read some of it.

 

[RidgwayCO]

The Speer Reloading Manual #14 shows +P .38 Special loads for all their bullets using N350 and 3N37 (and also some for standard pressure .38 Special).

 

[Otto]

VihtaVuori appears to publish data to the standards for both SAAMI and for CIP. Thus, if you can find a Finnish-language V. manual, it will have the CIP specifications--I think.

This is a quote from the latest Vihtavuori reloading guide:

"The listed maximum loads have been determined according to
the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower."

SAAMI max pressure for the .38 Special is 17,000 PSI
SAAMI max pressure for the .38 Special +P is 20,000 PSI.

Perhaps the Vihtavuori 4th edition manual (not the guide) would have 38 Special loads approaching the 20K PSI level.