Want downward sweep decocker type safety

[wbond]

Good stuff. Thanks.

One reason I wanted a downward sweep is that it's faster and easier for me. However, from the point of view of foiling a bad guy with a safety he can't easily or quickly work, the up-sweep or forward sweep is counter-intuitive and might be better in that way.

I do like Bersas and CZs, but am open to others as well. On my Firestorm (Bersa) .32 and I have become fairly adept at the upsweep with practice. That practice took me a week to get good at. A bad guy would indeed be more likely delayed by a forward or upsweep safety.

Thanks

Massad Ayoob has discussed this at some length, but mostly in the context of police carry (open carry, lots of interaction with questionable individuals at close range). He was not talking about having a gun taken out of the officer's hands, but rather situations in which the bad guy gets the gun out of the officer's holster. About 20% of police officers are killed this way, and there have been a number of situations in which a criminal took the officer's gun but couldn't figure out how to get it off-safe, allowing the officer time to draw a backup gun.

I'm not sure how applicable that would be to civilian concealed carry, though it could be a consideration for open carry.

I do like having a safety on a gun for use when handling the gun (loading, unloading, holstering, storing). I have an S&W 3913LS with a manual safety/decocker, but it's usually off-safe when in the holster. Note that some guns with manual safeties (PPK clones, etc.) are NOT designed to be carried with the safety off and should be on safe when carrying.


I know you had mentioned that you'd like a safety/decocker that sweeps down to fire, but the S&W style safety/decocker (slide mounted, sweep forward with your thumb to fire) is IMHO just as fast with practice, and would open up your range of possible pistols quite a bit. There aren't many guns at all with sweep-down decockers, and some of those don't have particularly good reputations for ease of action under stress.

 

[wbond]

Awesome advice. Thanks. I do like Bersa, CZs, and others.

I also want to look into other models and brands mentioned by others. Thanks again.

If you like Bersa's. The mini thunder 9 and 45 have the frame mounted downward sweep saftey decocker just like you want. The mini thunder 9 is not a lot bigger than the 380.

 

[wbond]

You raise some good points, but I still want what I want.

To Technosavant:

You raise some issues below, but I still want what I want for the same reasons as before. A smart gun would be great, but to costly. A safety is good enough and affordable.

I'm NOT an idiot for wanting a safety. I think the Sarah Brady comment was over the top, uncalled for, and got me going, as it was intended to. That smacked heavily of a personal attack, which I don't think was called for. Same with some other things you said.

When I disagreed with you earlier regarding that I wanted a safety-that-decocks and not just a decocker, I was not attacking you. I was only disagreeing with regard to my personal preferences and explaining why.

We can disagree in a polite manner. Can't we? There is no need to make the insulting implications about my intelligence, lack of balls, or insinuate I'm in Sara Brady's camp, etc. I just want a safety and I explained why. That's neither stupid or gutless, nor does it make me an anti-gun person. I just want a safety and I have my reasons. That's all.

So let's leave it at that and get back to what the thread is supposed to be about. Semi-auto safeties that sweep down to fire, up to safe and decock.

I do appreciate that this started with your trying to make helpful suggestions. Thanks for that. Let's please get back to that mind set for the benefit of everyone.

In my experience, people don't like controversial threads and will abandon and avoid them. This thread is a good thing and I'm learning a lot. Others are probably learning too. I don't want this thread to die because I'm still gaining knowledge. So please let's be nice and not argue anymore whether we agree or not. Thanks.

You are welcome to it. But I was trying to point out that the facts which formed your opinion aren't necessarily applicable. You are still able to do as you please. You don't even need to answer the questions I raised, but I raised them for the benefit of others.

1) Are other people going to know you carry, and thus a gun is available for the taking?
2) Do you plan on drawing it when use is not justified, thereby placing you in trouble no matter what (whether you shoot or the BG decides to make a grab)?
3) Do you never pay attention to what is going on around you, thus making your carry weapon (if known about) vulnerable?
4) If taking away your gun without being seriously injured is so easy, then why are you worrying about it instead of just planning to take it back?

Feel free to disregard these, but they are food for thought for others who might be worried about the scenario you mentioned. If this worries you that much, you can also wait until a "smart gun" is available, or purchase a retrofit kit for the firearm you choose (they are available, but I and many others aren't remotely interested).

I think benEzra has it right- that sounds more like a stat for police officers, not for civilians with a concealed weapon. LEOs have weapons right out in front of the world, and they often engage in contact with BGs that doesn't involve gunplay, making their weapon vulnerable. You and I will not be doing so, making the risk of having the gun ripped from the holster a moot point.

 

[Technosavant]

wbond, no personal insult was intended nor was one implied, and I apologize if I gave you that impression. The Brady comment was because their misleading stats tend to get sanitized of all context and quoted in other arenas (news reports), thus legitimizing them and confusing reasonable people. I was NOT implying that you had any part in their camp.

I do think my points on the "having gun taken away" are valid, but like I said, you don't have to think as I think- feel free to disagree and disregard. I never said you were an idiot/stupid/gutless/anything of the sort, and I have seen nothing that would indicate such. I don't really care what somebody else carries, as far as having a safety, decocker, neither, or both. I was just trying to point out that if the reason you were limiting your selection to such features was having a BG grab your gun, then you would be safe in expanding your selection. But it's your call.

As for leaving everything else there, that sounds fine, and again I am sorry if my remarks were more personal than they should have been. I was not meaning that.

There have been a number of good suggestions.

 

[hksw]

I don't have any experience with the CZ83 but from looking at its photos ad your description, it seems that the gun decocks as the safety is being applied in an upward motion. Although some of the guns discussed here do decock and provide a safety lever, most of them do so in two seperate operations. For the guns such as the Taurus PT92/99/100/101 and HK USP, the decocking/safety lever is depressed below level to decock and raised above level to activate the safety.

If the decocking safety lever does work as I had described in the first part, i.e. decocking as the safety is applied in one motion, the Bersa Thunder/FireStorm 9mm/.40SW/.45ACP guns work in the same manner. As the safety is applied upward the hammer also decocks, no need to depress the lever to decock.

 

[smince]

wbond:

I'm not going to insult your intelligence, either, I hope. But I wouldn't put my trust in the direction the safety works as my "Last Chance". BG's may not be brilliant, but they aren't always dummies. Choose a weapon you are comfortable with, then work on weapon retention and maybe consider a BUG as a "Last Chance."

 

[Stasher1]

My $.02 here...

If you're involved in a situation where the BG was able to disarm you and use your weapon against you, you:

a) weren't keeping your pistol concealed
b) drew, but waited too long to pull the trigger
c) let the BG get too close (within 7 yards) to start with
d) any combination of the above


No safety in the world will make up for a lack of training, skill, or situational awareness.

 

[SwampWolf]

In the real world (that is, where you can't always control the proximity of bgs; can't always avoid a situation where your handgun might be wrested away from you during a life-and-death struggle; can't always dictate the terms of the confrontation), carrying a pistol with the safety in the "on" position has saved more than a few good guys' lives in the past. The draw-back is a possibly slightly slower time in getting the pistol into play- a deficiency obviated by "training, skill and situational awareness." The upside is that the bg might experience difficulty in figuring out how to get the safety off, giving the gg some precious time to escape or bring other defensive skills into play, including accessing a back-up gun or even a knife.

As noted by a previous poster, my le career may be unduly over-emphasizing the chances of a "civilian" being disarmed and having his own weapon being used against him. But make no mistake: the statistics alluded to by wbond are very real ones. Carrying a pistol in either mode (safety on or safety off) has advantages and disadvantages. It is up to the individual armed citizen to decide which application is best for him/her. And there are no right or wrong answers to the dilemma...

 

[wbond]

Re CZ-83

To hksw:

Thanks for your post. Regarding the CZ-83, I own 3 of them. One in .32 ACP, another in .380 ACP, and one in 9x18. The 9x18 is my favorite, but I like them all. They are identical, other than caliber.

CZ-83 safeties are NOT decockers. The safety can only be applied when the hammer is cocked (to facilitate cocked and locked carry). Decocking is accomplished the old fashioned way (with finger on trigger and thumb on hammer). When not cocked, the safety cannot engage, which makes it just like carrying an uncocked revolver.

I don't yet know about the other guns you described, except the Bersa Thunder 9mm, which does work exactly like I want. The Taurus work exactly like I want too, but they're so hideously square and ugly. I know I'm being vain, but I want a bit of looks. Another poster said life is to short to spend with an ugly gun. I know it's vain, but I agree.

Guns that sound like what I want are the Bersa Thunder 9, many Taurus, and at least one HK. There's a few others I want to check out too.

Thanks

I don't have any experience with the CZ83 but from looking at its photos ad your description, it seems that the gun decocks as the safety is being applied in an upward motion. Although some of the guns discussed here do decock and provide a safety lever, most of them do so in two seperate operations. For the guns such as the Taurus PT92/99/100/101 and HK USP, the decocking/safety lever is depressed below level to decock and raised above level to activate the safety.

If the decocking safety lever does work as I had described in the first part, i.e. decocking as the safety is applied in one motion, the Bersa Thunder/FireStorm 9mm/.40SW/.45ACP guns work in the same manner. As the safety is applied upward the hammer also decocks, no need to depress the lever to decock.

 

[wbond]

What's a BUG?

To Smince:

Your advice is sound. Obviously. However, no plan is a guarantee. Sometimes plans go awry. Never the less, your plan is sound advice and worth following.

No safety is a guarantee either, but I still want one.

What is a BUG?

wbond:

I'm not going to insult your intelligence, either, I hope. But I wouldn't put my trust in the direction the safety works as my "Last Chance". BG's may not be brilliant, but they aren't always dummies. Choose a weapon you are comfortable with, then work on weapon retention and maybe consider a BUG as a "Last Chance."

 

[wbond]

All true, but I still want a safety.

To Stasher1:

All you said is true, but I still want a safety and not just for BG reasons. There are other good reasons to have a safety.

Rather than debate the good reasons for having a safety, let me just point out that they make them for a reason. Likewise, other guns are made without them for a reason.

We all try to plan life as best we can, but any plan can unravel. Your a, b, c, and d are all true, but ask any coach in any sport and they'll tell you that the best game plans don't always pan out and sometimes you have to improvise. Likewise, any competitive athelete would say the same.

Your a-d plan below is sound and worth following, but there are no guarantees that you will get to follow all of those rules.

I don't think there is any harm in having a safety and there are possible benefits. Yes, there are people who forget to let the saftety off. I know one guy who goes to the shooting range and habitiually can't pull the trigger because his safety is on and he forgot it. However, I'm not him.

I can remember to follow your a-d steps when possible and put off the safety too. The problem with your a-d plan is that sometimes life doesn't go as planned.

One time I came home and a stealthy home intruder was waiting for me. He got the drop on me because he knew I was coming home and I had no idea he had broken in. Life comes at you fast and the unexpected can happen. So although your a-d rules are good to follow when possible; you cannot be guaranteed the chance to follow all of them all the time. I survived by having my gun well concealed and leaving it there (I followed your rule a). Your rules b, c, and d did not apply to that situation because he was 2 feet from me when I walked in the door. He was so close I could smell his bad breath. He didn't walk up to me. He was on the other side of my front door waiting when I opened it.

I don't think a gun safety is a guarantee for me or anyone. There are no guarantees. Your rules are no guarantee either because you might not be able to follow them. However, they are worth following to the greatest extent possible. It was your first rule that saved me from having to wrestle for a gun (I kept it concealed). Your first rule helped to compensate for the other rules being already out the window (to close) before the confrontation started.

Whether you agree or not, I want a safety and a decocker. I really wish you guys would devote your expertise to helping me find what I'm looking for: a 9mm Para with a safety and decocker that has a low bore axis and weighs from 27 oz to 32 oz unloaded. Ideal would be 28 oz to 30 oz unloaded.

I know the features I want. Please help me find it.

Thanks

My $.02 here...

If you're involved in a situation where the BG was able to disarm you and use your weapon against you, you:

a) weren't keeping your pistol concealed
b) drew, but waited too long to pull the trigger
c) let the BG get too close (within 7 yards) to start with
d) any combination of the above


No safety in the world will make up for a lack of training, skill, or situational awareness.

 

[wbond]

What is an "le career" ?

In the real world (that is, where you can't always control the proximity of bgs; can't always avoid a situation where your handgun might be wrested away from you during a life-and-death struggle; can't always dictate the terms of the confrontation), carrying a pistol with the safety in the "on" position has saved more than a few good guys' lives in the past. The draw-back is a possibly slightly slower time in getting the pistol into play- a deficiency obviated by "training, skill and situational awareness." The upside is that the bg might experience difficulty in figuring out how to get the safety off, giving the gg some precious time to escape or bring other defensive skills into play, including accessing a back-up gun or even a knife.

As noted by a previous poster, my le career may be unduly over-emphasizing the chances of a "civilian" being disarmed and having his own weapon being used against him. But make no mistake: the statistics alluded to by wbond are very real ones. Carrying a pistol in either mode (safety on or safety off) has advantages and disadvantages. It is up to the individual armed citizen to decide which application is best for him/her. And there are no right or wrong answers to the dilemma...

 

[Technosavant]

BUG = Back Up Gun

LE Career = Law Enforcement Career

 

[Manedwolf]

That is the way they were originally made (well, without the decocker, anyway), but the "powers that be"(read: bureaucrats) have declared the slide-mounted safety/decocker to be the prefered method of operation.

Which is why I actually prefer the Taurus to the Beretta. My thumb can find the frame-mounted ambi safety (Taurus) a LOT easier on a draw than it can the slide-mounted one of the Beretta.

 

[Trainman]

What is a Skyy?

This is a SKYY:
http://www.skyyindustries.com/

 

[Heraclid]

Sorry, a bit late to this, but the Browning Pro-9 seems to fit the bill. Frame-mounted combination safety/decocker. All the way up for safe, downward sweep to middle position to fire, all the way down for decocking like a Sig or H&K USP. The setup and feel of it is such that you won't accidentally decock the gun when switching from safe to fire. It is also ambidextrous. Weight is where you want it too (polymer frame). Would be worth a look I think. I'm very new to mine but I really like it. Depends on the grip you like I suppose. It's a double-stack 16 rounder and it is fine with me, but slimmer guns could be had.

I'm not trying to be an arse, but I cannot in good conscience let the Skyy thing go untouched. Do what I did when I was searching for a handgun - read the Skyy forum there and see if you would be willing to rely on that firearm. I sure wouldn't. Sorry, but reliability is everything.

 

[Autolycus]

Wbond: In regards to the safety issue, many cops carry Glocks and other firearms with no safety other than a trigger safety and internal safeties. I would not worry about it as much.

But if you insist on a safety try an HK USP or HK USPc in a Variant 1 or Variant 2 configuration. Variant 2 is the left handed configuration. And I believe there is an ambidextrous safety avilable as an aftermarket part but I am not sure where.

 

[Pilot]

I love my CZ83s, but I don't like that I can't put the safety on when the hammer is not cocked.

Do you have a problem with carrying a DA revolver with no safety? Its the same thing. However, if you want a gun with a safety that can be engaged with the hammer decocked, get a Bulgarian Makarov. Similar in size to the CZ83. Others are the Beretta 84 and 85 series, and HK USP.

 

[Juna]

H&K USP Variant 1

Go pick up a USP Variant 1. It has exactly what you're asking for... a sweep down-to-fire manual safety that also acts as a decocker if you push it further down past the 'fire' position.