What causes flyer's

[OK-gobbler]

I have two older savage 110's (243 and 308) that group extremely well with factory and handloads. The problem is with my brother's 110 in .243 and friend's 110 w/ accutrigger in .270. They shoot 2 good shots and 1 flyer with every load, regardless of powder, bullet weight, or seating depth. It doesn't seem to matter if the barrel is cold, hot, clean, fouled. There is still a 3" flyer. Anyone else encounter this? Anyone else fix this?

 

[perpster]

Gremlins

 

[Jackal]

My Ruger 30-06 has the same problem. It stems from the barrel. I have noticed that the first 2 shots fired, the barrel is within a certain, usually low temp. However, after the thrid shot, the barrel is always far hotter. I beleive it is some sort of thermal build up that warps the barrel a tiny amount and changes my zero a tad bit. Also, stock pressure is a large consideration. As the barrel heats, it expands, which may cause it to come into contact with the stock somewhere.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

OK-gobbler, is the flyer always the third shot? From your question I got the impression the flyer could happen on the first, second OR third shot.
If it's always the third shot, I'd be inclined to go along with Jackal - the barrel has heated with the first two shots. If the flyer happens on a random number out of three shots, I'd be inclined to go along with perpster - Gremlins.

 

[steve4102]

Check the stock. I have a Savage 11G in 7mm-08 that had the same problem. The barrel just barely touch the stock when cold. Removed some of the wood from the barrel channel and all is well.

 

[308win]

Check the stock to action mounting to be sure it is tight. Check the crown. Check the mounts. Check the scope. If none of these check the shooter.

 

[Tim Burke]

For me, it's usually the jerk on the trigger...

 

[Grumulkin]

Flyers

Causes of flyers:

1. Fault of the shooter from inconsistent rifle hold, flinch, etc. These shouldn't really be called flyers but poor shooting.

2. Fault of the scope from loose elements or loose mounting.

3. Fault of the gun from a poor crown, a barrel that warps slightly from heat, poor bedding, poor barrel, etc.

4. Poor ammo with inconsistent powder ignition, bullets that are out of balance or inconsistent in weight, etc.

Another fact to keep in mind, one shot has no statistical significance in the accuracy department. Two shots have very little significance and 3 shots aren't a whole lot better. To know whether you have flyers or just big groups you need to either shoot more shots per group or shoot more 3 shot groups.

Not too long ago I shot a 3 shot group with an M1 Garand with open sites at 100 yards that went into about 0.75 inches. There were no "flyers" but that single group doesn't mean anything about the consistency realistically obtainable with the rifle. I also shot a 3 shot group at 100 yards with a 458 Lott that went into less than an inch; once again not a fair trial on accuracy.

 

[Doug b]

Yep my Colt 06 had this prob, also would not cut a dead bull but shot 1 shot to one side of the bulll next to the other side, then a big flyer.

One of the best smiths I've known (rest his soul) determined that a ball mill was used to bed the barrel and left a barely detectable ridge down the middle of stock.If the barrel layed on the side of the ridge it shot to the side if it layed on the top it shot a high flyer. He removed the ridge and it shoots under 1 moa now.

Might not be your prob, but worth looking at.

 

[OK-gobbler]

In this case, I don't think it is me or the ammo. My .243 will consistantly shoot 1" or better groups with 3 or 4 handloads and 1 factory load. Then I pick up my brother's .243, with same ammo and same conditions and get very poor results. I'll be the first to admit, everyone has a bad day at the range, but I do think you may be on to something about the fit of the stock, barrel and action. I cleaned the fit of my 243 and 308 up a bit a while back. I hadn't considered that posibility. I'll look at it tonight. Thanks. Keep the suggestions coming.

 

[OK-gobbler]

Grumulkin, I understand your statements about statistics and accuracy. These results were with 8-10 3 shot groups. Would a 5 shot group tell us more? Being a light sporter barrel, 5 would really heat it up.

 

[OK-gobbler]

Good advice guys. the barrel was touching the stock on the right side. I'll see if it shoots better after a stock adjustment. Thanks

 

[bogie]

I shoot benchrest. I know fliers.

1) Wind. Shoot over indicators.

2) Shoulder mirage (aka, the loose nut behind the butt plate). Follow through, and don't yank the trigger.

3) Action inconsistency... Check that trigger a few dozen times. Does it sound the same every time you pull it?

4) Barrel crown. Should be perfect.

5) If 1/3 of your ammo is from a different lot...

6) Action/stock bedding.

And that's just the beginning.

 

[OK-gobbler]

The barrel was touching the stock on the right side. With a little time and some sandpaper, I am able to slide a $1 bill between the barrel and stock. It shot considerable better. Around 1 1/2 ", but the wind was blowing about about 25-30 mph. 1 1/2 isn't up to my standards, but it is better than the 3-4" it was shooting. Anyway it is my brother's gun and all he uses it for is deer and an occasional coyote. It seems to like the Sierra 85 gr HP's better than the 100 gr sp. Either way 1 1/2" groups have killed a lot of deer over the years. Thanks for the help

 

[bogie]

Heck, look at a bench gun sometime... I can slide a whole night at a strip club between my barrel and stock..

 

[halvey]

As bogie knows, fliers still count. Ask the scorekeeper to eliminate your "fliers" and see what he says. Or tell the deer to hold still and wait a minute because you missed because of a "flier"

I have this "problem" with one of my guns. First two shots are one hole, the 3rd is always a "flier" 1" from the others. In reality, I have a 1" gun.

Seriously though, looks like you figured out the problem. Sporter barrels will tend to bend a bit. An old hunter once told me he wants to know where the first 2 shots will go and shoots them both rapid fire. That's his group. On a hunting gun you rarely get a 3rd shot.

 

[45crittergitter]

Suggested reading for masochists: The Bullet's Flight (From Powder to Target) by F.W. Mann.