What do they have to hide?

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I am SHOCKED! Do you mean to tell me a President or a candidate for said office is political?

Time to wake up. Abraham Lincoln was one of the most "political" Presidents in history. I'll wager that he is one or two on the top greatest list. You don't get to be President by being non-political.

The idiots who run this "commission" have had plenty of time to analyze 9/11 to death. Let me see, I think that was 2 1/2 years ago now. Apparently the we are in need of more conspiriacy theories out there to go with Kennedy, Waco, Ruby Ridge and even the Lincoln assasination.
 
Kim,
I only used Grenada as a reference because it was conducted (by necessity) without asking congress first. That is not the case with the war in Iraq. The administration went to Congress twice to get authorization to use force. No one in the opposition party has any complaint about the fact we went to war in Iraq. After all they voted to.

The Democrats need to come up with a reason for the public to support their agenda. I'm quite sick of this continual whining about a foreign policy they voted to conduct.

The fact of the matter is; they saw the same intelligence the administraion did. Maybe not the entire delegations, but the heads of the intelligence committees did. If they felt so strongly about it they could have voted as a block not to go to war or they could have fillibustered in the Sentate to stop the vote.

As for who is responsible for 9-11, we haven't had an administration that had an antiterrorism policy that was worth anything since the Reagan administration bombed Libya in 1986.

If we really want to cast stones at political parties over terrorism, the Democrats need to be careful about breaking their own windows. Perhaps they could have figured out that al-Queada was up to no good after they tried to blow up the World Trade Center the first time. If there was ever a plainer warning, I sure don't know what it was.

Of course the Democrats are counting on the fact that most people won't even remember that these same people tried the same thing way back in 1993 on Clinton's watch. It certainly wasn't better intelligence and police work that saved us from a potentially bigger disaster back in 1993, it was poor engineering and design on al-Queada's part. Loss of life was potentially much greater in that attack because if AQ had had their act together they would have dropped a tower that no one would have gotten out of. The arguement can always be made that 9-11 happened because the Clinton administration was a. Too ignorant of the real world to see AQ as a threat after the first WTC attack. b. Made the gross error in judgement of treating the first WTC attack as a criminal matter instead of an act of war.

No there is plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle. Personally I'm sick of all this posturing.

Jeff
 
Malone, Jeff has done an excellent job of explaining the political posturings of the issue. I stand by my post.

IMO, Malone, you are the one who's falling in line with a certain faction of spinmeisters on this issue.

Aside from the unanimity of *both* parties about WMDs, during this last ten or so years, there is one thing that hasn't been brought out in detail; only alluded to by Jeff: Beginning in the Carter era, the CIA had less and less input from human intelligence (HumInt) and more and more from electronic intellingence (ELint). Elint is good, but is often too remote for final verification of things like WMD.

And I note that in today's news there is finally info that some WMDs were moved from Iraq to Syria during late 2002 and early 2003. While this is not fully verified (ELint, again), it certainly is supportive of what many of us--and others--have believed since before the invasion of Iraq.

Malone, why would you get all exercised about Bush' comments about WMDs, and ignore the same commentary from various Democrat leaders? Why would Bush not believe Hillary or Kennedy when they accused Saddam of having WMDs?

Art
 
Jeff,

it would seem that that quaint rule saw its days end a while ago. IMHO there's no way to separate foreign and domestic politics, especially with the short presidential terms of the US. Elections dictate policy and the people will vote according to what they see on TV.

My location is Finland.
 
What do they have to hide?


Intel sources and methods maybe


Knowing George Tenet and the CIA it's much more likely that they want to cover up more blistering examples of incompetence and derilection of duty.

Bush deserves a lot of blame for 9/11 if for no other reason than for his failure to fire DCI Tenet his first day in office.
 
Let me say this about that (for you young whipper snappers out there, Nixon coined the phrase). Tenet and Meuller should have both been canned with extreme prejudice from the first day of Bush's reign.

Having said that about this, I will take up for Tenet and Meuller for the simple reason congress (both parties) in reaction to the Watergate mess began a long term process of evicerating the US intelligence capability. The most damaging work was done by Admiral Stansfield Turner, CIA, etc. director for President Jimmuh Carter. It was Turner who made two decisions early on that eventually bit Jimmuh in the butt. First, Turner assumed technical intelligence would produce better results than human intelligence, and second since the first was valid, the US no longer needed human spooks. So he promptly fired 300+ CIA operators around the world. In very short order US human intel went black. It fairly quickly bit Jimmuh in the butt with the takeover of the US embassy in Tehran. NO one, but NO ONE knew the players on the Iranian side. When the US mounted the failed raid to rescue the prisoners, the US had no assets on the ground. We were blind.

Since those years congress (both parties) have help the situation by putting restrictions on the spooks culminating in the Toracelli amendment which prohibited US intelligence from dealing with foreign nationals who may have human rights violations in their background. They call it the human rights scrub. It really killed any human intelligence during the balance of Clinton's reign. Clinton's rules and regulations bit both he and Bush in the butt on 9-11.

So if we want to investigate intelligence failures related to our actions in Iraq I think both parties will end up dirty. We still had a love of technical intel but we were trying to rebuild in a matter of months what congress destroyed at its leasure over the last 30 years.

I want a vigorous investigation of all parties including congress. No whitewash there. If CIA was obeying the law then they had better ID the law and those who passed it.
 
Where to begin...

The CIA was reigned in in the mid '70s because they were becoming an embarrassment with their abuses of power against US citizens. And strong evidence that they were involved with such activities as drug smuggling and overthrowing sovereign nations.

All of this might be why we had such lousy intelligence prior to 9/11 and regarding WMDs prior to the Iraq blunder. Jeff says maybe that was the best intelligence we had. I'm not disagreeing. But it was manifestly wrong, and I'd like to know why.

I think we would all like to know, if we care about our country and aren't a bunch of boot-licking sheep.

Hey! I've got a good idea. Let's have an independent investigation into both.

But both the existing investigation into 9/11 and the proposed investigation into intelligence failures around Iraq have been and are being obstructed by the person who's #1 constitutional job is to protect the country.

I think we have a right to ask why. Anyone who isn't a partisan sycophant would ask why.
 
I don't think anyone will disagree that we need a complete investigation. What we don't need is the partisan spinning. As I said earlier, there is plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle.

As for smuggling drugs and overthrowing sovereign nations...what do you think we pay them to do? :neener: Sorry couldn't resist teasing a little to lighten things up.

I'd like to recommend Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile to you. It's the story of the operation to aid the Afghan resistance in the 80s. It pretty much outlines how a wildman liberal democratic congressman from Texas funded the cause in congress. I've picked up a lot of insight into our current problems in the middle east. It seems we never learn from anything.

You're right that both investigations are being obstructed. And they are being obstructed because it's an election year and neither side is going to agree not to try to burn the other with leaks and exaggerations and out and out lies in the search for the perfect soundbite. When we call for bipartisanship, we don't mean one side agreeing with the other, we mean putting politics aside and fixing serious problems with national security. Will either side agree to that? No, which is exactly why we never get anything fixed.

We need to take the cuffs off of the CIA. We need to accept that intelligence is often dirty work that will require us to deal with many of the lowest forms of human life in the world. We're going to have to travel in circles that aren't nice, we may need to make deals to turn a blind eye to an arms shipment here or help get the poppies in for a warlord somewhere. It's not that we like doing these things, but that's the way of the world. And we are going to have to do things like hire other terrorists through proxies and cutouts to go places and do things our capable special operations forces can't. The people we are going after aren't like us. And if we insist they are, then we'll stumble around blind like we are now.

We need to amend the Torricelli amendment so Congress can't associate with lowlifes, but we need to let our intelligence agents do what they have to do.

Jeff
 
Well it looks like the intelligence was flawed. Even the Washington Post is claiming the CIA didn't roll over to political pressure. Of course we have to get the political posturing in. The article admits that the intelligence provided to the administration was the best we had, but then goes on to say the inquiry doesn't address allegations the Bush administration misued intelligence and exaggerated the threat. How in blue blazes do you misuse the intelligence and exaggerate the threat if you belive the intelligence to be correct? See what I mean, it's all politics and it's getting in the way of fixing the problem. I guess we're supposed to believe the administration somehow knew the CIA was wrong, but went ahead and invaded Iraq anyway? How were they supposed to know that? Looks to me like it was action taken on the best information that was available.

Jeff

Inquiries find no evidence CIA bowed to pressure on Iraq data
By WASHINGTON POST
01/31/2004


WASHINGTON - Congressional and CIA investigations into the prewar intelligence on Iraq's weapons and links to terrorism have found no evidence that CIA analysts colored their judgment because of perceived or actual political pressure from White House officials, according to intelligence and congressional officials.

Richard Kerr, a former deputy CIA director who is leading the agency's review of its prewar Iraq assessment, said an examination of the secret work done by CIA analysts showed that it remained consistent over many years.

"There was pressure and a lot of debate, and people should have a lot of debate, that's quite legitimate," Kerr said. "But the bottom line is, over a period of several years," the analysts' assessments "were very consistent. They didn't change their views."

Kerr's findings mirror those of investigations being conducted separately by the House and Senate intelligence committees, which have interviewed, under oath, every analyst involved in assessing Iraq's weapons programs and terrorist ties.

The panel chairmen, Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., and Rep. Porter J. Goss, R-Fla., and other congressional officials said in recent interviews that they found no evidence that analysts shaded their findings to more closely fit the White House's known desire to create the strongest, most urgent case for war with Iraq.

The conclusion that analysts didn't buckle under political pressure doesn't answer the question of why the intelligence reports were so flawed. Nor does it address allegations - made by Democrats in Congress and Democratic presidential candidates - that top officials in President George W. Bush's administration misused intelligence and exaggerated the threat posed by Iraq.

On Wednesday, former chief U.S. weapons inspector David Kay told a Senate committee that he no longer believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in the months leading up to the war. And he called for an independent inquiry into why U.S. intelligence agencies believed the opposite.

There have been instances in which intelligence analysts said they sensed pressure to reach certain conclusions, but the House and Senate investigators said there was no indication they bowed to such wishes.

Last year, for example, some analysts at the CIA complained to senior officials when Vice President Dick Cheney made multiple trips to CIA headquarters to question their studies of Iraq's weapons programs and alleged links to al-Qaida.

And analysts at the Defense Intelligence Agency told investigators they sensed pressure when civilian Defense Department leaders constantly questioned why their analysis had found only tentative links between al-Qaida and Iraq.

Neither the CIA inspector general nor the agency's ombudsmen received any complaints about outside meddling, a senior intelligence official said.

The CIA maintains that it is still too early to say that its assessment was wrong because the search for weapons is not over.
 
I think two factoids will inhibit any realistic investigation. First, in my view the very people responsible for the fiasco are true stakeholders and referees. . . . .congress. No blue ribbon, bi-partisan commission will ever be able to report the truth simply because the same goobers who created the problem are the ones who award contracts and shuffle money around. Any realy hope of figuring out what happened will fall on the shoulders of true, honest to goodness investigative journalists, and I'm not talking about the hacks who write for media organs. I refer to ink stained wretches who honestly believe truth does exist and it can be discerned.

Second, the story of WMD in Iraq is not over. Itn't it curious that while the US is building scaffolds for Bush, et al over the lack of WMD's, the Brits are not backing down one inch. It is also curious Cheney hasn't changed his tune. Lastly, in recent days stories originally posted about the shipment of WMD's out of Iraq and getting replayed. During the war there surfaced stories of convoys of trucks headed for the Baqua Valley in Syria. The US had overhead imagery and ground intel indicating a lot of the bad stuff left Iraq before the war started. Second is story of the 3 mystery ships which departed Iraq and which was steaming in circles in the Indian Ocean. Both stories showed up then quickly disappeared.

Regardless, Bush's doctrine of preemption is dead until a credible excuse is delivered. It's unfortunate because preemption is what has raised the pucker factor to new levels for islamofascist terrormongers. Syria may well have Iraq's WMD but Bush will catch all kinds of hell if he strikes without explaining why the intel apparently blew.
 
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