What is the limit to Buying and Selling in Nevada privately without license

[Glock702]

Las Vegas, Nevada does not require a background check nor showing the proof of any kind of "blue card" that states you are not a felon when buying and selling a gun through a private sale. My question is are there any limit to buying or selling a firearm privately as long as the seller sees that the person has a valid Nevada ID and has verbally confirmed he is not a felon.

also is their a limit as to how many guns a person can buy at the local gun shop?

 

[labnoti]

As far as I know there is no limit prescribed by the State of Nevada. It is the Federal government, the BATFE that prescribes the necessity of a license (FFL) for those engaged in the "business of dealing in firearms." Their criteria for when you become a firearms dealer is not based on a particular transaction count, but on a number of criteria they detail here:

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

With respect to Nevada State law, you just have to be sure to collect and remit sales tax if you sell more than two guns per 12-month period:

"A “retailer” is a seller who makes more than two retail sales during any 12-month period. NRS 372.055. Upon making more than two sales in any 12-month period, a seller must register with the Department and obtain a seller’s permit. NRS 372.125. Fewer than two sales are considered “occasional sales,” and occasional sales are exempt from the sales tax. NRS 372.035, 372.320. Provided that the seller has not made more than two sales during any 12-month period, the seller has no obligation to collect sales tax from the buyer."

 

[Glock702]

As far as I know there is no limit prescribed by the State of Nevada. It is the Federal government, the BATFE that prescribes the necessity of a license (FFL) for those engaged in the "business of dealing in firearms." Their criteria for when you become a firearms dealer is not based on a particular transaction count, but on a number of criteria they detail here:

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

With respect to Nevada State law, you just have to be sure to collect and remit sales tax if you sell more than two guns per 12-month period:

"A “retailer” is a seller who makes more than two retail sales during any 12-month period. NRS 372.055. Upon making more than two sales in any 12-month period, a seller must register with the Department and obtain a seller’s permit. NRS 372.125. Fewer than two sales are considered “occasional sales,” and occasional sales are exempt from the sales tax. NRS 372.035, 372.320. Provided that the seller has not made more than two sales during any 12-month period, the seller has no obligation to collect sales tax from the buyer."

thanks for that bit of information, it is still bit confusing for me. So if i sell more than 2 guns in a 12 month period, then I need to collect tax and give it to the federal government?

 

[labnoti]

No, the federal government does not collect sales tax. If you sell more than 2 guns in a 12 month period in Nevada you would need a seller's permit from the State of Nevada and you would be obligated to collect Nevada sales tax and remit it to the State of Nevada. That's the way the Nevada Revised Statutes read, but anyone who doesn't comply is only guilty of a state tax code violation and not a crime involving a firearm.

The ATF's criteria for when a person becomes "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms" and therefore requires an FFL is not based on a specific transaction count like "2 guns in a 12-month period," but considers a number of factors detailed in the PDF I linked. It is safe to say that if a person sells no more than 2 guns in a 12-month period, Nevada will consider that to be "occasional sales" and that the person is not a retailer. The ATF would be hard-pressed to assert otherwise. On the other hand, a person could sell 10 guns in a 12-month period and while Nevada would certainly consider them a "retailer" and require a seller's permit and sales tax for all their transactions, it may still be unlikely the BATFE would consider them a dealer or that they need a license, unless the person was representing themselves as "Nevada Gun Co." brand and selling those 10 guns at a high profit such that it was their primary occupation (like Jack Huntington "JRH" for example). On the other hand, if the person owned a chain of restaurants and used part of their high income on a gun-buying habit where they were buying six or seven guns a month and sold as many as 10 a year at a loss to make more room in their safe, I doubt the ATF would care if they had an FFL -- but they could also easily afford one and it might save them a lot in fees if they had it.

 

[Wisco]

There’s also retail versus personal sales. If I sell 100 guns I’ve owned for 25 years to pay medical bills, I’m not a retailer. Not anymore than selling 5 cars, 2 houses or whatever I’ve owned for personal use that I need to liquidate.

Of course capital gains might apply... if you’re being honest with non-titled property. The state WILL find out if you skip taxes on real estate.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... is are there any limit to buying or selling a firearm privately as long as the seller sees that the person has a valid Nevada ID and has verbally confirmed he is not a felon.....

Note that it would be a violation of federal law were you to transfer a gun to someone who you knew, or had reasonable cause to believe, was prohibited under federal law from possessing a gun or ammunition. Whether a seller might have reasonable cause to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person will be determined based on exactly what happened and how it happened, i.e., the totality of the circumstances,

So, for example, someone offers to buy your gun, shows you a local driver's license, and claims that he may lawfully buy the gun -- but your buyer reeks of marijuana. A jury could easily conclude that under such circumstances you would have had reasonable cause to believe that the buyer was a user of marijuana and therefore prohibited under federal law as an unlawful user of a controlled substance from possessing a gun or ammunition. Or your buyer happens to say in passing that he really wants the gun because he's in the midst of divorce and had to surrender his guns to the police because his estranged wife got a TRO against him.

Effectively, your buyer might claim to be okay to buy the gun. But if there's anything about the way he behaves, or if he says something, that would cause a reasonable and prudent person to doubt his claim, you could be at risk were you to sell him the gun.

Also, see this thread for a discussion about whether or when someone needs a dealer license under federal law.

 

[boom boom]

I am not sure what Glock702 is driving at. If you have the intention to buy and sell guns on a regular basis, you will need to get a dealer's license. Even a C&R license does not allow one to engage in commercial activities of a licensed gun dealer and a former FBI agent went to prison over this particular issue. You try to buy a large number of firearms at a time or even two handguns within five days, your dealer will report such to the ATF https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-multiple-firearms-sales

You might find this from Nevada Carry to be useful as a guide as well and the laws in Nevada will probably change with complete control of the state by Dems.
https://www.nevadacarry.org/buying-and-selling-guns.html

Might want to join the group to protect your rights at the state level.

 

[Glock702]

I am not sure what Glock702 is driving at. If you have the intention to buy and sell guns on a regular basis, you will need to get a dealer's license. Even a C&R license does not allow one to engage in commercial activities of a licensed gun dealer and a former FBI agent went to prison over this particular issue. You try to buy a large number of firearms at a time or even two handguns within five days, your dealer will report such to the ATF https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-multiple-firearms-sales

You might find this from Nevada Carry to be useful as a guide as well and the laws in Nevada will probably change with complete control of the state by Dems.
https://www.nevadacarry.org/buying-and-selling-guns.html

Might want to join the group to protect your rights at the state level.

in the past 2 years i have purchased and sold around 5-7 handguns/rifles total through all private sales acquired from a friend that passed away recently. I made sure to ask for their NV ID, and asked if they were a felon or not. I have gotten a bill of sale for every transaction as well as their drivers license number. I was told through private sales such as mine, it is not/nor should be a violation. The whole point is to grow my collection. Am I allowed to keep selling pistols and buying on a small collector scale?

 

[dogtown tom]

I was told through private sales such as mine, it is not/nor should be a violation.

Who told you that?

Am I allowed to keep selling pistols and buying like this on a small collectors scale?

Did you read https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download ?

 

[boom boom]

in the past 2 years i have purchased and sold around 10 handguns/rifles total through all private sales acquired from a friend that passed away recently. I made sure to ask for their NV ID, and asked if they were a felon or not. I have gotten a bill of sale for every transaction as well as their drivers license number. I was told through private sales such as mine, it is not/nor should be a violation. I don't want it to come bite me in the back one of these days and plus I am a law abiding citizen. I am getting ready to sell my xd and shield that are both registered to me to try and buy a m9a3 and a sig p365. Am I allowed to keep selling pistols and buying like this on a small collectors scale?

I do not know Nevada laws and some states also have local restrictions on such matters. Under federal law, as noted above, you have fulfilled the basics of not selling knowingly to a prohibited person and requiring identification. You also have recorded the sale. I am also assuming that another person was not present and the person presenting the Id was the final purchaser and did not intend to give/sell the firearm to another (straw sale and prohibited under most circumstances).

The ATF is deliberately vague on what constitutes a "dealer" and that is where some private sellers get into trouble as in the straw buyer situation. Nevada can also define a dealer differently if they wish--some states require a state license to do so and many, like WA, have prohibited private sales without going through a firearms dealer for the background check. In dealing with inheritances and sales, it gets even wonkier so I won't go into this.

I don't sell firearms myself and if I did or my inheritors do, I have left instructions to the effect of having a local gun store sell them on consignment. They deal with the paperwork and I (or my heirs) avoid the legal and administrative hassle.

One of the problems with private sales is that some buyers do not want a paper trail for a firearm because of fearing future confiscation. Some buyers may be underground dealers that acquire guns for illegitimate purposes or to avoid reports to the ATF of buying more than two handguns during a five day period. There is also the risk of civil liability to the seller if someone does something bad with your former firearm plus hassles involved in investigations of such matters. The guy that sold ammunition to the LV shooter ended up indicted on federal charges of manufacturing ammunition without a license

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...-linked-las-vegas-shooter-charged/1069243002/

I also suspect that Nevada's legislature if the Nevada Carry folks are accurate is going to require something like the Washington Law that requires all sales to go through a background check which you as an individual cannot do.

For me, the personal hassle of dealing with such issues is not worth the relatively small amount of money involved in buying and selling off the books. If you want to buy new firearms or newer used ones and dislike the ones you have, work out a consignment or trade deal for your existing firearms with a dealer would be my opinion. The big dealers won't do it but a lot of small dealers including pawnshop dealers are more than happy to do so.

I have from the ATF, a big volume of compiled state and federal gun laws dating from about 2010 (and they have added quite a few since then, I am sure). There are so many and these laws often employ such vague legal jargon that is not consistent between federal and states regarding things like black powder arms, antiques, C&R license status, etc. that someone like me who is risk averse simply does not want to deal with it. The statutory black letter of the law is also often defined through caselaw and regulations that make things even more dicey.

I see time and again where the state or federal government has prosecuted someone based on a technical violation without the intention of committing a crime that it makes me (a Scotus case involving straw purchases was one such), that I choose to pay a ffl for their services simply to avoid such issues. I have no desire to be a test case or a martyr of vague and confusing language in laws which I am sure is the point of this confusing morass of laws in the first place.

 

[Glock702]

I do not know Nevada laws and some states also have local restrictions on such matters. Under federal law, as noted above, you have fulfilled the basics of not selling knowingly to a prohibited person and requiring identification. You also have recorded the sale. I am also assuming that another person was not present and the person presenting the Id was not the final purchaser but intended to give the firearm to another (straw sale and prohibited under most circumstances).

The ATF is deliberately vague on what constitutes a "dealer" and that is where some private sellers get into trouble as in the straw buyer situation. Nevada can also define a dealer differently if they wish--some states require a state license to do so and many, like WA, have prohibited private sales without going through a firearms dealer for the background check. In dealing with inheritances and sales, it gets even wonkier so I won't go into this.

I don't sell firearms myself and if I did or my inheritors do, I have left instructions to the effect of having a local gun store sell them on consignment. They deal with the paperwork and I (or my heirs) avoid the legal and administrative hassle.

One of the problems with private sales is that some buyers do not want a paper trail for a firearm because of fearing future confiscation. Some buyers may be underground dealers that acquire guns for illegitimate purposes or to avoid reports to the ATF of buying more than two handguns during a five day period. There is also the risk of civil liability to the seller if someone does something bad with your former firearm plus hassles involved in investigations of such matters. The guy that sold ammunition to the LV shooter ended up indicted on federal charges of manufacturing ammunition without a license

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...-linked-las-vegas-shooter-charged/1069243002/

I also suspect that Nevada's legislature if the Nevada Carry folks are accurate is going to require something like the Washington Law that requires all sales to go through a background check which you as an individual cannot do.

For me, the personal hassle of dealing with such issues is not worth the relatively small amount of money involved in buying and selling off the books. If you want to buy new firearms or newer used ones and dislike the ones you have, work out a consignment or trade deal for your existing firearms with a dealer would be my opinion. The big dealers won't do it but a lot of small dealers including pawnshop dealers are more than happy to do so.

I have from the ATF, a big volume of compiled state and federal gun laws dating from about 2010 (and they have added quite a few since then, I am sure). There are so many and these laws often employ such vague legal jargon that is not consistent between federal and states regarding things like black powder arms, antiques, C&R license status, etc. that someone like me who is risk averse simply does not want to deal with it. The statutory black letter of the law is also often defined through caselaw and regulations that make things even more dicey.

I see time and again where the state or federal government has prosecuted someone based on a technical violation without the intention of committing a crime that it makes me (a Scotus case involving straw purchases was one such), that I choose to pay a ffl for their services simply to avoid such issues. I have no desire to be a test case or a martyr of vague and confusing language in laws which I am sure is the point of this confusing morass of laws in the first place.

thanks for the reply, I see where Nevada state laws differ from Washington. Nevada does not require a buyer to run a background check through private sales. Im sure all the people I sold my guns to privately were not short sales. They showed me their id and were indeed the people in the photo. I wrote all the necessary information on the bill of sale. I am getting the notion that I should stop selling and just keep buying.

 

[George P]

More like you should stop worrying

 

[boom boom]

thanks for the reply, I see where Nevada state laws differ from Washington. Nevada does not require a buyer to run a background check through private sales. Im sure all the people I sold my guns to privately were not short sales. They showed me their id and were indeed the people in the photo. I wrote all the necessary information on the bill of sale. I am getting the notion that I should stop selling and just keep buying.

The reason that a lot of people like private selling is that no government agency is involved in the paperwork, thus privacy. To get that, they are usually willing to pay more than a firearms licensee for it in a trade in. What I have seen, is that many of the small gun stores are delighted to handle consignment sales because they have stock to sell with no inventory costs to do so. Pawn shop dealers, in particular, already have paperwork systems set up to deal with installments, etc. and many will do consignment sales. For these sellers, greater stock with no inventory costs drives more customers their way. Thus, you may not get as much as a private sale but it will be more than what a gun dealer offers to buy it for usually and consignment fees are negotiable.

The only fly in the ointment is whether you trust the dealer and you need to only deal with long established businesses and individuals. Just have a written and signed consignment agreement. However, for a dealer to "steal" your firearm and sell it without you getting any money creates all kinds of problems for them as they are required to keep a bound volume of receiving and selling firearms. Thus, they would have to put in a federal required record that they received your firearm and then when they transferred it to another. Missing that information is a crime. They would go the federal pen for it.

The greater risk would be if your firearm got caught up in a bankruptcy of the store where you would have to have documentation that you retained ownership of it and it was not the store's inventory.

There are safer ways to make a buck than selling whole firearms with the tightly regulated gun industry and without a license. Probably, folks that run gunstores will tell you it is simpler to not sell guns period even if you have a license.

 

[Glock702]

The reason that a lot of people like private selling is that no government agency is involved in the paperwork, thus privacy. To get that, they are usually willing to pay more than a firearms licensee for it in a trade in. What I have seen, is that many of the small gun stores are delighted to handle consignment sales because they have stock to sell with no inventory costs to do so. Pawn shop dealers, in particular, already have paperwork systems set up to deal with installments, etc. and many will do consignment sales. For these sellers, greater stock with no inventory costs drives more customers their way. Thus, you may not get as much as a private sale but it will be more than what a gun dealer offers to buy it for usually and consignment fees are negotiable.

The only fly in the ointment is whether you trust the dealer and you need to only deal with long established businesses and individuals. Just have a written and signed consignment agreement. However, for a dealer to "steal" your firearm and sell it without you getting any money creates all kinds of problems for them as they are required to keep a bound volume of receiving and selling firearms. Thus, they would have to put in a federal required record that they received your firearm and then when they transferred it to another. Missing that information is a crime. They would go the federal pen for it.

The greater risk would be if your firearm got caught up in a bankruptcy of the store where you would have to have documentation that you retained ownership of it and it was not the store's inventory.

There are safer ways to make a buck than selling whole firearms with the tightly regulated gun industry and without a license. Probably, folks that run gunstores will tell you it is simpler to not sell guns period even if you have a license.

But if that were the case, how would that benefit the gun store owner, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole point of a gun business is to sell as much inventory as possible (of course following all necessary state and federal laws)?

 

[boom boom]

But if that were the case, how would that benefit the gun store owner, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole point of a gun business is to sell as much inventory as possible (of course following all necessary state and federal laws)?

Most states/localities have inventory taxes (under property taxes) (consignment would not be considered inventory) and often that inventory is financed and at risk for depreciation when new models come out, etc. Thus, the longer a retailer holds inventory, the more it costs them--turnover is the key. Now, if your firearms compete with half a dozen of the same model held by the retailer, then they might balk at an consignment sale.

But many smaller dealers do not keep large inventories, nor is it necessary when they can order and get anything in stock at the wholesalers pretty fast. In this case, a consignment sale with no costs to the retailer is pure profit for the retailer (aside from the paperwork which would be done in any gun sale). The mass merchants won't want to do this, the smaller dealers look at this as an opportunity for a sale with no investment in inventory. Plus, half the battle is to get people in the store in the first place and lower priced consignment guns can help drive traffic to buy holsters, ammunition, etc. A dealer is constrained on price for new firearms in order to make anything by prices from online sellers. Consignment sales, firearm accessories, and used firearms are how some dealers make their overhead.

The LGS's that only want to sell new guns at high prices don't last long.