What size HD buckshot?

[JShirley]

I've heard a lot over the years about how incredibly powerful a shotgun loaded with absolutely anything was at close range. This began with my father, who attempted to demonstrate by shooting a decaying tree at a distance of about 3 feet.

I was under-impressed by the result.

Look, it's easy enough. Get some gallon jugs, or cheat and just buy the cheapest 1 gallon jugs of water you can find. After you've patterned your load, line up the jugs and shoot them. 2 jugs is not enough penetration. More than 5 is too much. If you're concerned about overpenetration, stopping in the third should be "just right", though on the shallow side, as suggested by most experts.

Too easy.

If you want to get slightly more complicated, cover the line with a flannel shirt, old BDUs, or a light jacket. Set the jugs out at about 7 yards, and hit 'em.

The results may surprise you. Or, you can talk a lot about it here. The latter seems to be the preferred method for lots of folk on the net.

Additional advice if you want it: using light dove loads instead of mini-shells will not only be less expensive, but it's also likely to make your wife's early experiences with a shotgun less frustrating. Mini-shells frequently malfunction in repeating shotguns: they're really only (barely) useful in singles or doubles.

John

 

[RSVP2RIP]

What would you say is a required depth to reach vitals. I know for a knife it is 4", but would you trust a self defence round that only penetrated 4" in balistic geletin? I want something that goes 12" at least. So does the FBI and they are the ones using 4 buck! (or at least did at one time)

 

[KBintheSLC]

double posted

 

[Gryffydd]

I've been noticing your responses lately.

edited

I've been noticing yours lately as well. You complain every time a decent debate gets going.

I wonder if your words mighty would be so harsh in person. Unlikely.

My words would be the same. I expect people to defend their positions the same way I expect to have to defend mine. Whether they would be perceived as being as harsh or not, who knows? If they can't debate the subject without getting offended, oh well.

Do us a favor, dull the edge on you little cat claws a bit... you are bound to get your point across better with less insult and abrasion.

Where is the ad hominem in my posts? If somebody has so internalized their feelings for birdshot that they're personally offended by me saying it's a terrible idea for defense I can't exactly be blamed for that.

 

[Kindrox]

What would you say is a required depth to reach vitals.

I am something like 9 inches deep. Where I live I don't have to worry about heavy clothing. I guess you would have to dig up the FBI's reasons for 12" - I am sure they published the reasons somewhere.

 

[JShirley]

Law enforcement may have different needs than the typical homeowner, who stereotypically takes the "back against the wall" shot against an advancing intruder.

Law enforcement, OTOH, may need to make a crossbody shot, or fire through automobile glass. Both of these circumstances warrant deeper penetration. Personally, in a purely defensive load, I'll take anything that penetrates between 7" (with massive tissue damage) and 15" or so.

J

 

[Extremely Pro Gun]

#8 birdshot

 

[RSVP2RIP]

You offer a reasonable retort, but it can not ever be concieved, that you may have to make a cross body shot? Even in the defense of another in the home? I feel I have to prepare for the worst to an extent...

 

[Gryffydd]

Also, when someone is attacking you there's a decent chance they'll have their arms in front. Once you count in the thickness of their arm, with its bones and quite possibly sleeves you're getting up there. The Miami shootout would have probably ended much sooner if some of the FBI's shots hadn't struck the arms of their targets first.

 

[Kindrox]

that you may have to make a cross body shot?

If you get hit in the arm(s) with a shotgun to the extent that they take all the lead/massive tissue damage, is the arm or arm(s) functional at that point? If not you have basically won the fight unless the dude is really good with his feet

prepare for the worst to an extent

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

 

[Kindrox]

using light dove loads instead of mini-shells will not only be less expensive

I got'em just as the lowest recoil baseline. I expect I'll have to load them one at a time, but it will give her good practice on aim, heft, pulling the trigger, ect. I read that on the 870 they won't feed via the pump. She got most of the way through natrual childbirth, you'd think a shotgun shouldn't bother her.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I may well find there is a very good happy medium to be found.

For me, ad nauseum, I have found such a round in low recoil 00 Buck. Now, Im not an expert by any means and will be the first to admit this. Of course, from what I gather, even the low recoil stuff can tear through walls. But, compared to most of my handgun loads (which, to be honest, are of the less penetrative rounds), the low recoil buckshot is actually safer...for the lack of a better term.

But, I would be interested in your findings. Additional info (if good info) is always better than the lack thereof.

At the end of it all, as I mentioned earlier, I keep a weapon around (for HD) in order to STOP a threat...not to wound, give second chances to, not to scare or even to kill. Hence...my preference for the "heavier" loads. Beyond this, I practice and practice some more. Yes, I could miss. But, then again...I could hit (with consistent practice, the odds increase in my favor); and if I do hit, I want it to count.

My life and the life of my lovely bride could one day depend on it.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

Ask yourself this: Would you trade the life of a loved one for the life of a neighbor?

I don't have the answer, it's not fun to think about, but it is something you have to ask youself.

There is the iminent threat of life to a loved one vs. the possibillity of somehow harming another...

 

[JShirley]

Wouldn't killing a neightbor kid be akin to the worst?

In GA, anyone who does not live in a domicile, who enters by force, may be shot. <------- (That's a period.)

I'm not in a hurry to kill anyone, despite the 6 billion who inhabit the planet. But if the "neighbor kid" breaks in, he's welcome to a load of shot or a slug in COM just like any other threat. (It's also legal in GA to use lethal force to prevent a violent felony, and if the intruder has the means to break in, he of course has the means to commit a violent felony.) If you don't secure your doors (passive defensive measures), why are we even bothering to talk about active defensive measures like firearms?

J

 

[Gryffydd]

Judging by his previous posts, his concern is a missed round traveling through any interior walls, exterior walls including siding and insulation, the neighbor's exterior walls, and hitting an innocent neighbor kid in his room.

 

[Kindrox]

J,

I ment killing a neighbor kid that is in his own house. I asked the question because preparing for the worst, to me, is a balancing act of defending myself and sending lead into a neighbor house and killing a bystander.

 

[Gryffydd]

There is the iminent threat of life to a loved one vs. the possibillity of somehow harming another...

Exactly. In the event you have to fire in self defense inside your home, if your round fails to stop the attacker you have a very, very high chance of losing your own life or the lives of loved ones.
In the event you fire an effective round at an intruder it must miss, AND it must travel through all of your walls AND it must make it through the neighbor's exterior walls AND someone must just happen to be in that exact spot at that exact time.

So in the event that you actually have to fire you have a very high probability of death or worse for your family and realistically a very low probability of harming an innocent. Particularly if you've planned your defenses ahead of time.

 

[JShirley]

"Don't miss."

I mean, seriously. You would just about have to WORK to miss an adult human inside a house with a shoulder-mounted weapon. Especially if you've gone the barricade in room/wait for 911 response route. If you can't hit something standing in your bedroom doorway when you've got your longarm resting on the bed, and already sighted in...you don't need to be using a firearm.

That may sound harsh, but there it is. You might consider a Taser. I hear they rarely overpenetrate a threat.

Oh, incidentally, "the worst" would be a gang coming into my house to kill my children and rape and kill my wife in front of me. Maybe we have different ideas about "worst".

John

 

[Kindrox]

You would just about have to WORK to miss an adult human inside a house with a shoulder-mounted weapon

I don't know what to say about that, never having been in a situation. All I can say is many other people have been, and in general miss more than they hit. I think I’d be a bit conceited to plan on

If you can't hit something standing in your bedroom doorway when you've got your longarm resting on the bed, and already sighted in...you don't need to be using a firearm.

John, that seems like a narrow limitation - only use your gun when you are 100% sure of a hit. I for one don't know where I'll be when I realize I need the use of a gun (I got one for each side of the house). I don't know how many of them there will be, I don't know exactly where my wife and child will be, I don't know if I will be better barricading up and waiting for the cops, or if I'll be in a situation where I need to move.

Planning for the worst, I expect I’ll be moving and they will be moving. That seems like a recipe for a miss or two.

Maybe we have different ideas about "worst".

I am glad to know you don't live next to me, actually. I don't believe those are my only two options.

 

[JShirley]

I don't mean to sound arrogant. There are lots of more skilled shooters here than I am. But I have never had a complete miss on a target at close range with a longarm* in the last 20 years. This includes literally thousands of rounds fired from carbine at 50 meters and less. There is no reason to believe that I'll suddenly be unable to make easier hits than I've been making regularly since 2002 (when I was active infantry).

So...if you were my neighbor...I think you'd be in pretty good shape.

I believe, if you are able to isolate what weapons have been used in defensive shooting, you will find that the vast majority of those misses happened with handguns.



*I have missed one deer that I led too much, and small, fast moving game

I don't believe those are my only two options.

Let me explain something. "Worst", by definition, means it don't get "no badder". Bad as it gets. No worse. Who said anything about options? Overpenetration and hurting a noninvolved party would be tragic (unlikely as it is, especially if you HIT your TARGET), but, friend, there are far worse things.